What evidence exists for an afterlife in the HP universe? I haven’t actually read the novels beyond 1-3, just fanfiction, and movies 4-6.
EDIT: Since people have asked why:
I read books 1-3 while I was still living in Chicago, and the whole family read them together. Then I moved out in 2000, and didn’t get around to trying to read book 4 until it was time to write the fic… and found that I couldn’t seem to read it. Maybe it was a change in the literary quality (I’ve heard others say that) or it was the fact that I’d already watched the movie and that got rid of the plot tension. Or (my personal suspicion) the fact that I’d read a lot of fanfiction aimed at a more grownup audience meant that the children’s-book version of the Potterverse just didn’t feel right to me any more.
I feel guilty about not reading the later books, obviously, but my brain doesn’t want to do it and one of the major points of this whole endeavor is that it’s fun, not something I have to make myself do. So I’ve been getting along on movies 4-6, other fanfiction, and above all the Harry Potter Wikia.
Mentioning this because TV Tropes is now giving me a “Did Not Do The Research” trope, which is supposed to be for people who didn’t care enough to find out something they could’ve gotten in 10 minutes, and that stings a bit. I tried, I really did, and now I read the Wikia and try my best to get things right, but I’m just not enjoying the original Potter novels. Not every children’s book, even ones that have taught millions of children to enjoy reading, ends up being enjoyable to every adult.
“Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality” is in the Potterverse because I was attracted to the universe of Harry Potter fanfiction.
You’re doing a good job of fanfic for someone who hasn’t even read all the books! I’d recommend reading book 7 though just so you know what’s up.
edit: you obviously have some idea of what happens in book 7 from whatever other fanfics/spoilers, but still, it’s another thing to read the original source.
In the last book one of the Deathly Hallows is used to communicate with the dead. You should read 7 (among other things it helps one appreciate how utterly incoherent JK Rowling’s notions of morality and heroism are).
I’m aware that people have tried to interpret it that way. I’m also very sure that that’s not at all what Rowling intended. It simply doesn’t fit with her general approach in the books.
The heroism objection is that there’s such a large deal made about Harry’s willingness to sacrifice himself. But he’s just found out that there’s a happy afterlife where he’ll get to be with his parents and everyone else who died in the books. Given that, the sacrifice is much less impressive.
It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, so forgive me if I’m missing something. But I thought Harry wasn’t sure if there was an afterlife. He even expresses doubt whether the “afterlife” conversation is something he’s just imagining in his head.
Also, I think that argument proves too much: it would apply to every soldier, terrorist, freedom fighter, activist, and martyr who believes in an afterlife. Even if you intellectually believe there’s an afterlife (or even if you intellectually believe your sacrifice is right) it’s still difficult to overcome the instinct to stay alive.
Uneel guvaxf gung gur nsgreyvsr pbairefngvba jvgu Qhzoyrqber zvtug or va uvf urnq. Ohg ur qbrfa’g guvax gung gur pbairefngvba cevbe gb gung jvgu gur Erfheerpgvba Fgbar jurer ur gnyxf gb Wnzrf, Yvyl, Fvevhf, Yhcva vf va uvf urnq. Vg frrzf gb or gnxra sbe tenagrq nf erny. Gura, Uneel znxrf uvf fnpevsvpr naq gura orpnhfr bs gung fnpevsvpr vf noyr gb pbzr onpx.
Also, I think that argument proves too much: it would apply to every soldier,
terrorist, freedom fighter, activist, and martyr who believes in an afterlife. Even if
you intellectually believe there’s an afterlife (or even if you intellectually believe your > sacrifice is right) it’s still difficult to overcome the instinct to stay alive.
True, but Harry’s certainty in an afterlife is much higher than that of any of those people, and his certainty about the nature of the afterlife is also much higher. Moreover, he’s been specifically told that death isn’t a big deal. Fvevhf says that it is a smooth transition.
If someone is that certain about the afterlife and the nature of the afterlife, then it does substantially reduce the heroism of such sacrifices.
Heck, even if you were absolutely completely certain that a decent afterlife awaits you, martyrdom still mean getting the shaft. The afterlife and whatever it may offer will be waiting for you indefinitely and will presumably last a long, long time, whereas once you give up on your earthly life’s experiences there’s no getting them back.
“Found out that there’s a happy afterlife”? You’re reading a lot more into that scene than I did. My interpretation of it was that he had a near death experience, and like lots of other people having such experiences, he hallucinated something about an afterlife, with no reason to believe it was anything more than a hallucination; fortunately he was sane enough not to take it too seriously. He certainly did not subsequently behave like he had suddenly started placing much less value on life.
Are we talking about the same scenes? Harry gets a hold of the Resurrection Stone and talks to his dead friends and relatives before the encounter with Volemort where he lets Voldemort kill him. That’s not a near death experience, that’s Harry walking along and talking to their forms. Then he has his confrontation with Voldemort. The only near death experience is after that, where Harry has his conversation with Dumbledore.
Oops! indeed we weren’t talking about the same scenes, I thought you were talking about the conversation with Dumbledore. My memory of the resurrection stone scene is fuzzier, I thought it was understood to be just an illusion, but now I can’t be certain whether Harry thought of it that way, or just me.
Another reason to read the other books, you are occasionally making minor contradictions with her magic system that wouldn’t occur if you read the other books. In particular, in the latest chapter where Hermione and Harry experiment together “If you didn’t tell her at all what the spell was supposed to do, it would stop working” is contradicted by canon in Half-Blood Prince.
Book 7 spoilers ROT13′d, though I tried to be nonspecific.
Gurer vf n cerpyvznk rkpunatr va obbx 7 gung vf onfvpnyyl pbzzhavpngvba orgjrra bar bs gur yvivat punenpgref naq bar bs gur punenpgref va gur UC havirefr nsgreyvsr.
Five was the best book. It just makes the most sense to me, as an ending and as a story. Harry Potter becomes a teacher and freedom fighter. It is no longer the story of a boy, but of a man. The end.
Umbridge ruined that one for me. When you design a character by just stringing together hate-triggers without a single instant of sympathy (which even Voldemort has!), the result is worse than bad writing—it’ll break my suspension of disbelief and make me start flipping pages. Something as simple as a pet would have made her fly under the “WARNING: YOU’RE READING A KIDS BOOK” radar.
It’s not the cat itself that I feel is needed; it’s a quick scene of her petting a cat (warning: TVtropes). (And it ought to not be an evil Persian, obviously).
What evidence exists for an afterlife in the HP universe? I haven’t actually read the novels beyond 1-3, just fanfiction, and movies 4-6.
EDIT: Since people have asked why:
I read books 1-3 while I was still living in Chicago, and the whole family read them together. Then I moved out in 2000, and didn’t get around to trying to read book 4 until it was time to write the fic… and found that I couldn’t seem to read it. Maybe it was a change in the literary quality (I’ve heard others say that) or it was the fact that I’d already watched the movie and that got rid of the plot tension. Or (my personal suspicion) the fact that I’d read a lot of fanfiction aimed at a more grownup audience meant that the children’s-book version of the Potterverse just didn’t feel right to me any more.
I feel guilty about not reading the later books, obviously, but my brain doesn’t want to do it and one of the major points of this whole endeavor is that it’s fun, not something I have to make myself do. So I’ve been getting along on movies 4-6, other fanfiction, and above all the Harry Potter Wikia.
Mentioning this because TV Tropes is now giving me a “Did Not Do The Research” trope, which is supposed to be for people who didn’t care enough to find out something they could’ve gotten in 10 minutes, and that stings a bit. I tried, I really did, and now I read the Wikia and try my best to get things right, but I’m just not enjoying the original Potter novels. Not every children’s book, even ones that have taught millions of children to enjoy reading, ends up being enjoyable to every adult.
“Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality” is in the Potterverse because I was attracted to the universe of Harry Potter fanfiction.
Curious—how come you haven’t read the remaining books?
You’re doing a good job of fanfic for someone who hasn’t even read all the books! I’d recommend reading book 7 though just so you know what’s up.
edit: you obviously have some idea of what happens in book 7 from whatever other fanfics/spoilers, but still, it’s another thing to read the original source.
In the last book one of the Deathly Hallows is used to communicate with the dead. You should read 7 (among other things it helps one appreciate how utterly incoherent JK Rowling’s notions of morality and heroism are).
Can you please elaborate on this? Do you know the interpretation where Harry dies in the duel and everything after that is in his head as he’s dying?
I’m aware that people have tried to interpret it that way. I’m also very sure that that’s not at all what Rowling intended. It simply doesn’t fit with her general approach in the books.
The heroism objection is that there’s such a large deal made about Harry’s willingness to sacrifice himself. But he’s just found out that there’s a happy afterlife where he’ll get to be with his parents and everyone else who died in the books. Given that, the sacrifice is much less impressive.
It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, so forgive me if I’m missing something. But I thought Harry wasn’t sure if there was an afterlife. He even expresses doubt whether the “afterlife” conversation is something he’s just imagining in his head.
Also, I think that argument proves too much: it would apply to every soldier, terrorist, freedom fighter, activist, and martyr who believes in an afterlife. Even if you intellectually believe there’s an afterlife (or even if you intellectually believe your sacrifice is right) it’s still difficult to overcome the instinct to stay alive.
I’m rereading that section now. ROT13ed:
Uneel guvaxf gung gur nsgreyvsr pbairefngvba jvgu Qhzoyrqber zvtug or va uvf urnq. Ohg ur qbrfa’g guvax gung gur pbairefngvba cevbe gb gung jvgu gur Erfheerpgvba Fgbar jurer ur gnyxf gb Wnzrf, Yvyl, Fvevhf, Yhcva vf va uvf urnq. Vg frrzf gb or gnxra sbe tenagrq nf erny. Gura, Uneel znxrf uvf fnpevsvpr naq gura orpnhfr bs gung fnpevsvpr vf noyr gb pbzr onpx.
True, but Harry’s certainty in an afterlife is much higher than that of any of those people, and his certainty about the nature of the afterlife is also much higher. Moreover, he’s been specifically told that death isn’t a big deal. Fvevhf says that it is a smooth transition.
If someone is that certain about the afterlife and the nature of the afterlife, then it does substantially reduce the heroism of such sacrifices.
Heck, even if you were absolutely completely certain that a decent afterlife awaits you, martyrdom still mean getting the shaft. The afterlife and whatever it may offer will be waiting for you indefinitely and will presumably last a long, long time, whereas once you give up on your earthly life’s experiences there’s no getting them back.
“Found out that there’s a happy afterlife”? You’re reading a lot more into that scene than I did. My interpretation of it was that he had a near death experience, and like lots of other people having such experiences, he hallucinated something about an afterlife, with no reason to believe it was anything more than a hallucination; fortunately he was sane enough not to take it too seriously. He certainly did not subsequently behave like he had suddenly started placing much less value on life.
Are we talking about the same scenes? Harry gets a hold of the Resurrection Stone and talks to his dead friends and relatives before the encounter with Volemort where he lets Voldemort kill him. That’s not a near death experience, that’s Harry walking along and talking to their forms. Then he has his confrontation with Voldemort. The only near death experience is after that, where Harry has his conversation with Dumbledore.
Oops! indeed we weren’t talking about the same scenes, I thought you were talking about the conversation with Dumbledore. My memory of the resurrection stone scene is fuzzier, I thought it was understood to be just an illusion, but now I can’t be certain whether Harry thought of it that way, or just me.
Another reason to read the other books, you are occasionally making minor contradictions with her magic system that wouldn’t occur if you read the other books. In particular, in the latest chapter where Hermione and Harry experiment together “If you didn’t tell her at all what the spell was supposed to do, it would stop working” is contradicted by canon in Half-Blood Prince.
You shouldn’t have said that! Now Eliezer will start reading all the books instead of updating his story!
Book 7 spoilers ROT13′d, though I tried to be nonspecific.
Gurer vf n cerpyvznk rkpunatr va obbx 7 gung vf onfvpnyyl pbzzhavpngvba orgjrra bar bs gur yvivat punenpgref naq bar bs gur punenpgref va gur UC havirefr nsgreyvsr.
It wasn’t clear from the text whether that particular conversation actually occurred, or was just in Harry’s head.
The existence of ghosts is evidence against the existence of a separate afterlife.
4 was the best book. You’re missing out.
Five was the best book. It just makes the most sense to me, as an ending and as a story. Harry Potter becomes a teacher and freedom fighter. It is no longer the story of a boy, but of a man. The end.
Everything afterward was just a bad dream.
Umbridge ruined that one for me. When you design a character by just stringing together hate-triggers without a single instant of sympathy (which even Voldemort has!), the result is worse than bad writing—it’ll break my suspension of disbelief and make me start flipping pages. Something as simple as a pet would have made her fly under the “WARNING: YOU’RE READING A KIDS BOOK” radar.
She has a lot of kitten paraphernalia. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she kept an actual cat that simply never made it into a scene of the book.
It’s not the cat itself that I feel is needed; it’s a quick scene of her petting a cat (warning: TVtropes). (And it ought to not be an evil Persian, obviously).