Well, I take it that Anubhav is talking about piriteing a book as a justifiable responce to wanting it. Legally, anyway, that’s intellectual property theft.
Well, I take it that Anubhav is talking about piriteing a book as a justifiable responce to wanting it. Legally, anyway, that’s intellectual property theft.
If you are appealing to legal considerations in order to support your preferred semantics you had best consider that ‘theft’ and copyright infringement are covered by entirely different laws. In fact, they aren’t even covered by the same kind of law. For most part copyright infringement is a civil issue not a criminal one. This doesn’t say anything about whether it is moral but it makes “the law says it is stealing” rather questionable.
For years whenever I went to see a movie I had to put up with this nonsense. This sort of equivocation just sickens me. It brought to mind the observation that one man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens. I’m never going to look at “copying movies is stealing” with anything but contempt.
I’m never going to look at “copying movies is stealing” with anything but contempt.
Also, as a general heuristic, when the best argument that can be made for a position is to confuse the language involved, that position is likely wrong. (not to say that any particular other is right, tho; that would be reversed stupidity).
Also, as a general heuristic, when the best argument that can be made for a position is to confuse the language involved, that position is likely wrong. (not to say that any particular other is right, tho; that would be reversed stupidity).
legally, “intellectual property” doesn’t exist. There are a number of legal institutions collectively called IP, but the term IP is not a legal one.
Furthermore, copying, use without license, counterfeiting and such are legally “infringement”, not “theft”. Theft is legally a criminal offense, infringement is civil (lawsuits).
Using the term “theft” in the context of copyright infringement is political rhetoric designed to confuse the issue. Copying looks very different from the rest of category “theft”.
“Piracy” is also a stupid term {copy, theft and murder on the high seas} looks about as useless as {hitler, stalin, john smith}. Carve reality at the joints. “Copy” is very clear in what it means and has no political connotations.
If you would like to make a moral case about book copying versus book buying, do so without reference to useless categories.
Agree about the word theft. It is not helpful except as a dishonest ploy to conflate two actions that have not been agreed to be the same and have some significant differences.
Mostly disagree about the word ‘piracy’. Murder on the high seas is so different people should only confuse the two meanings as a joke. Maybe it was a bad idea to reuse the word initially but not now it is a common meaning. The only thing is it is pretty bad taste if someone you know has been kidnapped by pirates, but that is quite rare.
‘Copy’ is not quite right—that would include downloading Cory Doctorow’s stories from his own website, for example. These are deliberately made available by the author. We are really talking about copying that is neither authorised by law nor by the owner/creator. And probably not including forging bank notes, only copyright infringement.
ETA—I may have missed your point here, whether piracy in the sense of copying carves reality at the joints is also arguable. But it is a category I have in my head.
“Piracy” is also a stupid term {copy, theft and murder on the high seas} looks about as useless as {hitler, stalin, john smith}. Carve reality at the joints. “Copy” is very clear in what it means and has no political connotations.
Insisting on ‘copy’ is move similar in kind to insisting on ‘property’. It has the political connotation of moral acceptability. In some cases using a word that sounds like an acceptable thing isn’t much different to insisting on a word that sounds terrible.
I don’t think insisting on using non-moral primitives to describe moral situations is on the same level as confusing things with rhetorical terms, but I’ll think about it.
If you can’t make a moral case without using words that already have moral connotation, there probably isn’t one to be made. For example, it would be easy to make a moral case against breaking windows by appealing to economics, utility, opportunity costs, and so on. You would not have to mention “vandalism”.
Likewise in this case. If a moral argument can’t be made for or against copying without appealing to rhetorically tainted words, I don’t think we should be discussing the issue.
If I was really interested in making copying sound good, I would be using words like “wealth”, “produce”, “wealth replication”, “cultural commons” and so on.
I don’t think insisting on using non-moral primitives to describe moral situations is on the same level as confusing things with rhetorical terms, but I’ll think about it.
I agree, particularly in as much as the morally loaded terms can only be used in the moralizing rhetoric while the neutral terms can be used either as opposing rhetoric in the same vein or they can be used to discuss the issue and consequences at a low level.
Likewise in this case. If a moral argument can’t be made for or against copying without appealing to rhetorically tainted words, I don’t think we should be discussing the issue.
Which, of course, it can.
If I was really interested in making copying sound good, I would be using words like “wealth”, “produce”, “wealth replication”, “cultural commons” and so on.
This is one of the words I’d have been using to explain the intended benefit of laws preventing copying. “Property rights and enforceable legal restrictions” is the standard rudimentary solution to tragedies of the commons for good reason!
If I was really interested in making copying sound good, I would be using words like “wealth”, “produce”, “wealth replication”, “cultural commons” and so on.
This is one of the words I’d have been using to explain the intended benefit of laws preventing copying. “Property rights and enforceable legal restrictions” is the standard rudimentary solution to tragedies of the commons for good reason!
I thot that list up quickly. I’m not surprised some of the terms were wrong. (rhetoric is always wrong!)
Anyways, I was thinking of “cultural commons” in terms of people being free to mix and mash culture without getting legally harassed or having to pay lots of fees. It seems that “cultural commons” is at the core of the issue.
I’m going to go ahead and state this in case it is not clear: I may or may not have an opinion on this subject, and I do not intend to bring it into this discussion. My interest is in keeping the language and discussion rational as opposed to political.
‘Copy’ sounds neutral to me. It has negative connotations in some scenarios (‘got caught copying in an exam’, ‘All that the Chinese idiots do is copy American innovations’).
In fact, off the top of my head I can’t think of a single instance where ‘copy’ has a positive connotation.
Legally, slaves may be property, but that doesn’t mean there’s no difference between my burning down my house and burning down my slave.
And copyright infringement and theft aren’t even the same legally. You have to file a civil suit for the former but a criminal suit for the latter. ‘Intellectual property theft’ is just empty rhetoric.
Legally, slaves may be property, but that doesn’t mean there’s no difference between my burning down my house and burning down my slave.
One of them is insurance fraud and the other is ‘discipline’? (At least, if there happens to have been a culture where insurance fraud was an issue that also had slavery.)
Who said anything about stealing? This is about buying or copying a book, not theft.
Well, I take it that Anubhav is talking about piriteing a book as a justifiable responce to wanting it. Legally, anyway, that’s intellectual property theft.
If you are appealing to legal considerations in order to support your preferred semantics you had best consider that ‘theft’ and copyright infringement are covered by entirely different laws. In fact, they aren’t even covered by the same kind of law. For most part copyright infringement is a civil issue not a criminal one. This doesn’t say anything about whether it is moral but it makes “the law says it is stealing” rather questionable.
For years whenever I went to see a movie I had to put up with this nonsense. This sort of equivocation just sickens me. It brought to mind the observation that one man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens. I’m never going to look at “copying movies is stealing” with anything but contempt.
Also, as a general heuristic, when the best argument that can be made for a position is to confuse the language involved, that position is likely wrong. (not to say that any particular other is right, tho; that would be reversed stupidity).
Totally agree (including with the caveat.)
legally, “intellectual property” doesn’t exist. There are a number of legal institutions collectively called IP, but the term IP is not a legal one.
Furthermore, copying, use without license, counterfeiting and such are legally “infringement”, not “theft”. Theft is legally a criminal offense, infringement is civil (lawsuits).
Using the term “theft” in the context of copyright infringement is political rhetoric designed to confuse the issue. Copying looks very different from the rest of category “theft”.
“Piracy” is also a stupid term {copy, theft and murder on the high seas} looks about as useless as {hitler, stalin, john smith}. Carve reality at the joints. “Copy” is very clear in what it means and has no political connotations.
If you would like to make a moral case about book copying versus book buying, do so without reference to useless categories.
Agree about the word theft. It is not helpful except as a dishonest ploy to conflate two actions that have not been agreed to be the same and have some significant differences.
Mostly disagree about the word ‘piracy’. Murder on the high seas is so different people should only confuse the two meanings as a joke. Maybe it was a bad idea to reuse the word initially but not now it is a common meaning. The only thing is it is pretty bad taste if someone you know has been kidnapped by pirates, but that is quite rare.
‘Copy’ is not quite right—that would include downloading Cory Doctorow’s stories from his own website, for example. These are deliberately made available by the author. We are really talking about copying that is neither authorised by law nor by the owner/creator. And probably not including forging bank notes, only copyright infringement.
ETA—I may have missed your point here, whether piracy in the sense of copying carves reality at the joints is also arguable. But it is a category I have in my head.
Insisting on ‘copy’ is move similar in kind to insisting on ‘property’. It has the political connotation of moral acceptability. In some cases using a word that sounds like an acceptable thing isn’t much different to insisting on a word that sounds terrible.
Good point, and I just thot of that myself.
I don’t think insisting on using non-moral primitives to describe moral situations is on the same level as confusing things with rhetorical terms, but I’ll think about it.
If you can’t make a moral case without using words that already have moral connotation, there probably isn’t one to be made. For example, it would be easy to make a moral case against breaking windows by appealing to economics, utility, opportunity costs, and so on. You would not have to mention “vandalism”.
Likewise in this case. If a moral argument can’t be made for or against copying without appealing to rhetorically tainted words, I don’t think we should be discussing the issue.
If I was really interested in making copying sound good, I would be using words like “wealth”, “produce”, “wealth replication”, “cultural commons” and so on.
I agree, particularly in as much as the morally loaded terms can only be used in the moralizing rhetoric while the neutral terms can be used either as opposing rhetoric in the same vein or they can be used to discuss the issue and consequences at a low level.
Which, of course, it can.
This is one of the words I’d have been using to explain the intended benefit of laws preventing copying. “Property rights and enforceable legal restrictions” is the standard rudimentary solution to tragedies of the commons for good reason!
I thot that list up quickly. I’m not surprised some of the terms were wrong. (rhetoric is always wrong!)
Anyways, I was thinking of “cultural commons” in terms of people being free to mix and mash culture without getting legally harassed or having to pay lots of fees. It seems that “cultural commons” is at the core of the issue.
I’m going to go ahead and state this in case it is not clear: I may or may not have an opinion on this subject, and I do not intend to bring it into this discussion. My interest is in keeping the language and discussion rational as opposed to political.
‘Copy’ sounds neutral to me. It has negative connotations in some scenarios (‘got caught copying in an exam’, ‘All that the Chinese idiots do is copy American innovations’).
In fact, off the top of my head I can’t think of a single instance where ‘copy’ has a positive connotation.
Legally, slaves may be property, but that doesn’t mean there’s no difference between my burning down my house and burning down my slave.
And copyright infringement and theft aren’t even the same legally. You have to file a civil suit for the former but a criminal suit for the latter. ‘Intellectual property theft’ is just empty rhetoric.
One of them is insurance fraud and the other is ‘discipline’? (At least, if there happens to have been a culture where insurance fraud was an issue that also had slavery.)