There’s a big difference between a person who says double-cruxing is a bad tool and they don’t want to use it, and someone who agrees to it but then turns out not to actually be Doing The Thing.
And it’s not that ability-to-double-crux is synonymous with rationality, just that it’s the best proxy I could think of for what a typical frustrating interaction on this site is missing. Maybe I should specify that.
I would hazard a guess that you might have written the same comment with “debate” or “discussion” instead of double-crux, if doublecrux hadn’t been invented. Double crux is one particular way to resolve a disagreement, but I think the issue of “not willing to zoom in on beliefs” and “switching frames mid-conversation” come up in in other conversational paradigms.
(I’m not sure whether Said would have related objections to “zooming in on beliefs” or “switching frames” being Things Worth Doing, but seemed worth examining the distinction)
I think it would be very connotatively wrong to use those. I really need to say “the kind of conversation where you can examine claims together, and both parties are playing fair and trying to raise their true objections and not moving the goalposts”, and “double-crux” points at a subset of that. It doesn’t literally have to be double-crux, but it would take a new definition in order to have a handle for that, and three definitions in one post is already kind of pushing it.
There are rationalist-adjacents for whom collaborative truth-seeking on many topics would fail because they’re not interested in zooming in so close on a belief. There are post-rationalists for whom collaborative truth-seeking would fail because they can just switch frames on the conversation any time they’re feeling stuck. And to try to collaborate on truth-seeking with someone, only to have it fail in either of those ways, is an infuriating feeling for those of us who thought we could take it for granted in the community.
Unless I am misunderstanding, wouldn’t orthonormal say that “switching frames” is actually a thing not to do (and that it’s something post-rationalists do, which is in conflict with rationalist approaches)?
I believe the claim he was making (which I was endorsing), was to not switch frames in the middle of a conversation in a sort of slippery goal-post-moving way (especially repeatedly, without stopping to clarify that you’re doing that). That can result in poor communication.
I’ve previously talked a lot about noticing frame differences, which includes noticing when it’s time to switch frames, but within the rationalist paradigm, I’d argue this is a thing you should do intentionally when it’s appropriate for the situation, and flag when you’re doing it, and make sure that your interlocutor understands the new frame.
The rationalist way to handle multiple frames is to either treat them as different useful heuristics which can outperform naively optimizing from your known map, or as different hypotheses for the correct general frame, rather than as tactical gambits in a disagreement.
There’s a set of post-rationalist norms where switching frames isn’t a conversational gambit, it’s expected and part of generative process for solving problems and creating closeness. I would love to see people be able to switch between these different types of norms, as it can be equally frustrating when you’re trying to vibe with people who can only operate through rationalist frames.
There’s a big difference between a person who says double-cruxing is a bad tool and they don’t want to use it, and someone who agrees to it but then turns out not to actually be Doing The Thing.
And it’s not that ability-to-double-crux is synonymous with rationality, just that it’s the best proxy I could think of for what a typical frustrating interaction on this site is missing. Maybe I should specify that.
I would hazard a guess that you might have written the same comment with “debate” or “discussion” instead of double-crux, if doublecrux hadn’t been invented. Double crux is one particular way to resolve a disagreement, but I think the issue of “not willing to zoom in on beliefs” and “switching frames mid-conversation” come up in in other conversational paradigms.
(I’m not sure whether Said would have related objections to “zooming in on beliefs” or “switching frames” being Things Worth Doing, but seemed worth examining the distinction)
I think it would be very connotatively wrong to use those. I really need to say “the kind of conversation where you can examine claims together, and both parties are playing fair and trying to raise their true objections and not moving the goalposts”, and “double-crux” points at a subset of that. It doesn’t literally have to be double-crux, but it would take a new definition in order to have a handle for that, and three definitions in one post is already kind of pushing it.
Any better ideas?
“Collaborative truth-seeking”?
Gotcha. I don’t know of a good word for the super-set that includes doublecrux but I see what you’re pointing at.
Unless I am misunderstanding, wouldn’t orthonormal say that “switching frames” is actually a thing not to do (and that it’s something post-rationalists do, which is in conflict with rationalist approaches)?
I believe the claim he was making (which I was endorsing), was to not switch frames in the middle of a conversation in a sort of slippery goal-post-moving way (especially repeatedly, without stopping to clarify that you’re doing that). That can result in poor communication.
I’ve previously talked a lot about noticing frame differences, which includes noticing when it’s time to switch frames, but within the rationalist paradigm, I’d argue this is a thing you should do intentionally when it’s appropriate for the situation, and flag when you’re doing it, and make sure that your interlocutor understands the new frame.
I agree with this comment.
The rationalist way to handle multiple frames is to either treat them as different useful heuristics which can outperform naively optimizing from your known map, or as different hypotheses for the correct general frame, rather than as tactical gambits in a disagreement.
There’s a set of post-rationalist norms where switching frames isn’t a conversational gambit, it’s expected and part of generative process for solving problems and creating closeness. I would love to see people be able to switch between these different types of norms, as it can be equally frustrating when you’re trying to vibe with people who can only operate through rationalist frames.