Thanks for the shoutout!
clarissethorn
Karma: 388
It seems to me that once we get away from obviously problematic situations (such as blackmail), the distinction is going to be in intent, which is never uncontroversial.
He has this post about the “dark side of game”: http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/03/dark-side-of-game.html
This post from him really flipped me out: http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2011/02/life-sucks-marriage-still-good.html
because of this quotation: “yes we still had sex on Friday night (she squirted), Saturday night (she cried), Sunday morning (she tolerated it) and Sunday night looks good too (she’s gonna go for the handjob option when I offer it). ”
which, uh, doesn’t sound like his wife is all that into the sex. On the other hand, she later asserted that she has no problem with their current setup in this post: http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2011/02/jennifer-answers-some-questions.html
so the problem I think is more with careless phrasing than careless treatment of her feelings. At least, I hope so. She sounds pretty ok to me.
Haha. That’s some vote of confidence there.
I know! I heart my commenters! Many of them are sooo amazing.
I’ve been working on figuring out how exactly I establish intimacy through conversation, and getting better at it. One thing HughRistik once observed is that “expressing interest in their reality” is absolutely key, but that’s pretty basic.
I am tickled to be referenced as “Clarisse Thorn herself”. Since that conversation, though, I have to say that I’ve thought about Kristen’s Feministe comment a lot, and I think I understand it better now (though I’m still not sure I agree).
(1) shows a guy who is trying to exert dominance by telling her what to do. “You have lovely eyes, they’d be remarkable if you wore makeup” includes a proposed “solution” to the “problem” he’s outlining. (3), on the other hand, is just mockery. “That guy will rot your brain” doesn’t tell her what to do.
I see the distinction now, but I’m not convinced that the speakers did, nor am I convinced that most hearers would.
My problem with this model is that sexuality is extremely important to me and a guy pretty much has to prove that he’s sexually interesting in order to be worth my time. This is difficult to accurately gauge through conversation—even men who are in my sexual subcultures/etc can be less-than-ideal sexual matches. It might be good for me to follow a more strategic drawn-out pattern than sex on the first date, but that would require me to spend a lot of time on men who may not end up being sexually awesome (and also it removes the pleasure of having sex with them from the first few dates). I am currently working on ensuring that I hit emotional hookpoint with men on the first date, and then having sex on the first date. I seem to be relatively successful at this, but I’d like to be better at it.
I recommend the movie “Filming Desire” for what I found to be a very interesting and nuanced feminist analysis of objectification, and what happens when women try to represent sex for ourselves rather than buying into how the dominant culture represents sex (i.e., how men with stereotypical desires represent sex).
Here is an edited version of a comment I recently wrote on my own post “Ethical Pick-Up Artistry” [ http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/03/23/ethical-pick-up-artistry/ ], which I think is tangentially relevant:
I don’t really like the idea that men’s sexuality is generally more focused on stereotypically “hot” women, and that it’s some kind of inherent difference—beyond cultural influences—that it’s more unusual/more difficult for men to be attracted to non-conventionally attractive women than to conventionally attractive ones, as opposed to the way attraction works for most het women. But it could be true, and if it is then I don’t feel comfortable shaming men for that. (It seems like gay men frequently exhibit similar attraction patterns to straight men, in terms of being considerably more attracted to younger partners and more, shall we say, sculpted partners. I seem to recall reading somewhere that lesbians have written critiques of ageism in gay men’s attraction patterns.)
There’s evidence for sexual fluidity but there’s no evidence for being able to consciously change sexuality. Maybe changing culture can change sexuality. There’s no evidence for this and I’m extremely reluctant to police art, porn, whatever based on a weak hypothesis, especially if the goal is to police sexuality even more than it is already policed. All the anecdotes (and sexuality scholars) I’ve encountered have said that sexual fluidity appears to happen in a way we can’t control and don’t understand. The ex-gay movement shows us that even people who are very motivated to abandon homosexuality simply cannot meet with success, and will become disillusioned witnesses against the programs that tried. What good is shame for influencing such a force?
But is it such a problem that attraction patterns are like this? Well, it sucks for conventionally unattractive women in particular. I have a lot of sympathy for this (as my frequently-noted fears of aging show). On the other hand, a lot of things about sexual attraction just aren’t fair, and if we start insisting that people are obligated to have sex with people they’re not attracted to, that’s not right either.
I think the real, and important, problem comes in when people (especially women) who are attractive are given more social power in other areas: more likely to be promoted, more likely to be seen as competent, etc (studies show that blonde hair is most universally attractive to men and that blondes make more money on average than other women). Some famous misogynist, I can’t remember which one, is on record as saying that feminism is about giving unattractive women more power in society (even leaving aside its massive misread on feminism, this statement assumes that unattractive women don’t deserve any power in society, which is obviously fucked up).
People aren’t very good at watching their biases in general, and so when I say that men generally suck at watching out for how biased they get about attractive women, I’m not trying to say something specific about men. It may be that women are less biased by conventionally attractive men because our hormones just work differently. It may also be that attractive men would be able to get ahead through their attractiveness more if women had the same amount of overall power in society as men. Regardless, it seems like the focus should be on de-biasing people to think that attractive people are better at things that have nothing to do with attraction, rather than on attempting to change men’s attraction patterns.
No, I didn’t comment on the post I’m thinking of. It was overwhelmingly sexist (in comments people made jokes about women being gold-diggers, for example), but it didn’t have to do with BDSM.
I’ve gotten better at “sounding rationalist” since I commented on that “is masochism necessary” post, and I’ve also gotten better at not getting angry. I look back at how I wrote my comment there and I’m a little surprised at myself.
As I said, I spent a while trying to find it, but I couldn’t. I really wish I could find it, because it was a stellar example. After I failed to find it I thought that maybe it was actually a post at OvercomingBias (don’t even get me started on Robin Hanson), but I couldn’t find it when looking for that either. I think I must have deleted the email in a fit of rage.
I agree—different resources are necessary for different questions. I personally tend to read sociology papers whenever I can get my grubby little paws on them. Note that I have a feminist bent, so I tend to look for feminist-leaning resources. For example, I recently read this fascinating study: http://das.sagepub.com/content/10/3/293.short
I have a big crush on HughRistik. It is important to note that he is not an accurate representation of PUAs. He is considerably more concerned with ethics, more friendly to feminism, more willing to acknowledge systemic problems in the PUA subculture, and smarter than the vast majority of PUAs. Quotation from one of his writings:
“There are a lot of problems with the seduction community that feminists correctly observe, including misogyny, cynicism towards relationships, and a few tactics that are bad for consent.” from: http://feministcritics.nfshost.com/blog/about/seduction-communitypickup-artists/
(edited for grammar)
The first LW post I was ever directed to was so bad (and the comments were waaaay worse) that I didn’t comment, decided never to look at this site again, and had to be convinced by the steady campaigning of a friend.
Of course, feminism (and sexuality) is my pet issue. Note the quote from Alicorn in the “sayeth the girl” post that rhollerith posted: “I would almost certainly have vacated the site already if feminism were my pet issue, or if I were more easily offended.”
Maybe this is more evidence that I’m particularly hard to offend? Not sure.
I spent a while trying to find the first post I was ever directed to, but I couldn’t—sorry.
Of course, it depends more on the individuals involved than anything else, but I would say that a non-negligible percentage of rationalists are unwilling to question gender biases (and in fact, many get defensive because they prefer to consider themselves rational and non-sexist, and then in their defensiveness, fail to examine their biases). This is common enough that the geek feminist blog Restructure has a whole post called The Myth Of White Male Geek Rationality: http://restructure.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/myth-of-white-male-geek-rationality/
Yes—and I find that the “Women hate the dark arts because they can’t deal with reality” trope is a very common one (perhaps less common on LW, but common in general). It may be that the OP didn’t intend to imply that, but it may also not be an unreasonable implication to draw given the frequency the argument is made.
Hahaha. You wish.
Another thought—along the lines of my first paragraph, one common term that’s used to insult sex-positive feminists (by feminists who don’t identify as sex-positive) is “fun feminists”. The idea being that we wouldn’t hold our position if it weren’t “fun”, or that we’ve been distracted from the “important” stuff by the “fun” stuff, or that we get undeserved attention for being more “fun”. This obviously makes some of us feel like we have to prove that we’re not that fun :P
Hey Eliezer,
Interesting point. I think part of the problem is that sex theorists have to work very hard to get ourselves taken seriously, so many of us overcompensate. Another problem is that while sex is totally fun, sex also comes with an enormous potential to harm, so it’s important to take it seriously at least somewhat.
Also, sex is a highly-triggering area for most people. I specifically try to include some humor and/or sexy anecdotes in my writing, but I find that I am considerably likely to be misinterpreted when I do so, and when I’m misinterpreted it can get really bad really fast (“I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU JUST MADE LIGHT OF ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS!11”).
One of the projects I’m outlining right now is a BDSM erotica novella in which I try to include as much theory as I possibly can while still keeping it sexy. We’ll see if I succeed.
It’s been a long time since I logged into LW; I just saw this. Actually, I released a book this year in which I analyze manipulation fairly extensively through the lens of the pickup artist subculture. It’s called Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser: http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2012/03/08/confessions-of-a-pickup-artist-chaser-now-available/