living in Italy in a 20k people town, with a job paying me about $20k a year
Small pool of women, unattractive salary. Move to a bigger town (which is also the best way to facilitate change within yourself, changing your surroundings), fall in with the fitness crowd (peer pressure, “yo bro do you even lift?”), make your dabbling in “logic/math/AI” a “learning how to program” at least doubling your income. Don’t come across as desperate, and the best way to achieve that isn’t to hide it, but not to be desperate for validation anymore.
make your dabbling in “logic/math/AI” a “learning how to program” at least doubling your income.
A minor point: this coul probably work in the US, but it doesn’t in Italy. Average salary for a good programmer (not outstanding, but at least experienced) is around $25k. It should also be noted that the cost of living in Italy is slightly lower, so $20K per year, while not impressive, it’s still a decent salary.
Wow! Do you have any insight into why programmers there make so little on average? Programming interns in the US make the equivalent of $30k-$50k a year while working, often with benefits.
First, many EU citizen tend to assume $1 is 1€ at first approximation, while currently it’s more like $1.3 for 1€. Cthulhoo may have made this approximation. Second, lower salaries may be compensated by a stronger welfare system (public unemployment insurance, public health insurance, public retirement plan…). This one is pretty big: in France, these cost over 40% of what your employer has to pay. Third, major cost centres such as housing may be cheaper (I wouldn’t count on that one, though).
To take an example, I live in France, and here, entry-level programmers with an engineering degree make about 23k€ in net salary (often with a few benefits, and possibly more in the capital). That’s about 38k€ that your employer have to pay. Convert that in US$, and we’re talking about $49k.
From that amount, cut US taxes that serve unemployment, health, and retirement. I know nothing about the US tax system, so I leave it to you. I just wanted to say that I expect the actual difference between European and US salaries to be much lower than what we expect from a cursory look at “gross salaries”, which doesn’t even mean the same thing across countries.
Now, for someone who isn’t afraid of unemployment, and plans to postponed retirement through rejuvenation procedures that should be available a couple decades from now (reaching either the intelligence explosion or escape velocity), my analysis goes out the window.
Given that your name looks familiar from Hacker News and your website suggests you like programming for its own sake, you should consider coming to Silicon Valley after the US congress finishes loosening up immigration restrictions for foreign STEM workers (which seems like it will probably happen). In the San Francisco area, $100K + stock is typical for entry-level people and good programmers in general are famously difficult to hire. Also, lots of LW peeps live here. My housemates and I ought to have a couch you can crash on while you look for a job. In the worst case it’ll just be a vacation for you to visit the US and hang out with the LW people that live around here. PM me if you want more info and stuff.
(This also goes for other people who are good programmers who don’t live in Silicon Valley and don’t have a good reason not to move here.)
Though for now, seriously considering moving to the US tends to trigger my Ugh shields. I’m quite scared.
Don’t feel bad, according to my models, that’s how most people would react (I’ve tried to train myself out of this sort reaction with some success mainly because I used to be really interested in starting companies, which requires this sort of audacious determination). You don’t have to make a decision now. If I were you, I’d just let it be an option in the back of your mind for the time being until you get comfortable enough to think calmly about it.
Hmm, leaving everything and everyone behind, and a general feeling of uncertainty: what live will be like? Will I find a job? Will I enjoy my job (super-important)? How will this affect my relationship with my SO? Less critically, should I bring my Cello, or should I buy another one? What about the rest of my stuff?
We’re not talking moving a couple hundred miles here. I’ve done it for a year and, I could see my family every 3 week-ends, and my SO twice as much. Living in Toulouse, France, I could even push to England if I had a good opportunity. But to go to the US, I have to Cross the Ocean. If I leave this summer and find a job by September, I likely won’t make a single trip back before the next summer.
Also, I don’t think I value money all that much. I mainly care about the sense of security it provides. If I were guaranteed half of what I currently make to work at home on the computer science research that I want to do, I would take it.
So, If I were to move to the US, it couldn’t be just about the money. The job matters. And I’d better get closer to the LW-MIRI-CFAR community. And even then, I’m still not sure. Indefinitely postponing such a big decision is so easy.
Relevant HN thread. Both the SF startups I’ve worked for have/had free meals, flexible work hours, on-premise fun like climbing walls, table tennis, foosball, etc., egalitarian laid-back work environments, and so on. In terms of technology you’re working with, I’d guess that you’re probably more likely to work with something relatively newer and sexier like Hadoop, Ruby on Rails, or node.js here in SF than something like Java. I don’t know what you work with in France. In terms of whether the work is interesting… well, that depends on the startup.
How will this affect my relationship with my SO?
That’s a tougher one… supposedly the dating scene is relatively bad for men in SF, but I only just moved here so I don’t have much firsthand experience. I don’t know what your SO’s visa options would be. I assume she’s not a programmer? If she is, maybe she could apply for a visa too? I don’t know how you guys feel about gaming the US visa system by getting married?
Less critically, should I bring my Cello, or should I buy another one? What about the rest of my stuff?
Figure out how much it’s worth to you and how long you’d have to work here in order to buy equivalents for all of it or things that made you equivalently happy with your extra salary?
Also, I don’t think I value money all that much. I mainly care about the sense of security it provides. If I were guaranteed half of what I currently make to work at home on the computer science research that I want to do, I would take it.
Do you have any interest in effective altruism?
Indefinitely postponing such a big decision is so easy.
Well, you can certainly postpone it until we learn what kind of immigration reform, if any, passes. Even then, I think it would only start to take effect at the start of 2014 (but I really have no clue).
I don’t have a driver’s license; currently taking BART to work. Our place has reasonably good BART access, and BART goes to SoMa where all the hot startups supposedly are (I’m not very plugged in to the startup scene here, so I won’t be super helpful in finding a job; most of my salary info comes from Quora, GlassDoor.com, and limited personal experience + anecdotes). If lots of LW people respond to this thread, maybe I should start working as recruiter though? :P
In any case, my uninformed guess is that any immigration reform changes will start taking effect at the beginning of 2014, so there will probably be time for you to learn to drive.
The rule of thumb in the US is that the cost to the employer is twice the nominal salary, exactly what you said for France. Instead of paying so much tax, they pay for health insurance, which is probably what JamesF meant by “with benefits.” In some global sense health care is twice as expensive in the US as France.
lower salaries may be compensated by a stronger welfare system
This can be true on the level of society, but on the level of individual the lower salaries for professions like programming are compensated by a stronger welfare system for everyone.
First, many EU citizen tend to assume $1 is 1€ at first approximation, while currently it’s more like $1.3 for 1€. Cthulhoo may have made this approximation. Second, lower salaries may be compensated by a stronger welfare system (public unemployment insurance, public health insurance, public retirement plan…). This one is pretty big: in France, these cost over 40% of what your employer has to pay. Third, major cost centres such as housing may be cheaper (I wouldn’t count on that one, though).
To take an example, I live in France, and here, entry-level programmers with an engineering degree make about 23k€ in net salary (often with a few benefits, and possibly more in the capital). That’s about 38k€ that your employer have to pay. Convert that in US$, and we’re talking about $49k.
Just to clarify: I did adjust euros to dollars in my estimation. To be more precise, I work in what is mainly a software company (though I’m not myself a programmer), and the standard net salary here is 19K€ per year which makes roughly 25$ per year. Now, of course if you’re really good you can climb the ladder, and there are possible bonus if you reach outstanding results, but this requires more then the “teach yourself programming” level. From what I know, this is pretty much the standard, and a quick google search gives some confirmation of my numbers on this page: http://www.worldsalaries.org/italy.shtml.
It should be noted, though, that all salaries are rescaled roughly in the same way, and the cost of living is lower, so you might need to adjust your usual perspective.
Except for the programming advice, I disagree with all that. Small town people have more reason to look for you. Bigger town people will not peer pressure you into lifting, they’ll peer pressure you into unhappiness. Lifting itself is one of the worst ways of getting women in terms of time expenditure. It looks like you (mr mind) are optimizing for long-terming women, see my other commentaries for linking on that.
The sex ratio is a more important statistic than the absolute female population size, and it’s close to 1 in most places. (OTOH, the absolute female population size does affect whether e.g. numbers’ game is a feasible strategy.)
Given that not all women will be appropriate partners, having there be more of them increases the number of appropriate partners, provided that there’s a sufficiently effective filtering system to ensure that time isn’t wasted on false positives.
Small pool of women, unattractive salary. Move to a bigger town (which is also the best way to facilitate change within yourself, changing your surroundings), fall in with the fitness crowd (peer pressure, “yo bro do you even lift?”), make your dabbling in “logic/math/AI” a “learning how to program” at least doubling your income. Don’t come across as desperate, and the best way to achieve that isn’t to hide it, but not to be desperate for validation anymore.
A minor point: this coul probably work in the US, but it doesn’t in Italy. Average salary for a good programmer (not outstanding, but at least experienced) is around $25k. It should also be noted that the cost of living in Italy is slightly lower, so $20K per year, while not impressive, it’s still a decent salary.
Wow! Do you have any insight into why programmers there make so little on average? Programming interns in the US make the equivalent of $30k-$50k a year while working, often with benefits.
My guess is, they don’t make so little:
First, many EU citizen tend to assume $1 is 1€ at first approximation, while currently it’s more like $1.3 for 1€. Cthulhoo may have made this approximation. Second, lower salaries may be compensated by a stronger welfare system (public unemployment insurance, public health insurance, public retirement plan…). This one is pretty big: in France, these cost over 40% of what your employer has to pay. Third, major cost centres such as housing may be cheaper (I wouldn’t count on that one, though).
To take an example, I live in France, and here, entry-level programmers with an engineering degree make about 23k€ in net salary (often with a few benefits, and possibly more in the capital). That’s about 38k€ that your employer have to pay. Convert that in US$, and we’re talking about $49k.
From that amount, cut US taxes that serve unemployment, health, and retirement. I know nothing about the US tax system, so I leave it to you. I just wanted to say that I expect the actual difference between European and US salaries to be much lower than what we expect from a cursory look at “gross salaries”, which doesn’t even mean the same thing across countries.
Now, for someone who isn’t afraid of unemployment, and plans to postponed retirement through rejuvenation procedures that should be available a couple decades from now (reaching either the intelligence explosion or escape velocity), my analysis goes out the window.
Given that your name looks familiar from Hacker News and your website suggests you like programming for its own sake, you should consider coming to Silicon Valley after the US congress finishes loosening up immigration restrictions for foreign STEM workers (which seems like it will probably happen). In the San Francisco area, $100K + stock is typical for entry-level people and good programmers in general are famously difficult to hire. Also, lots of LW peeps live here. My housemates and I ought to have a couch you can crash on while you look for a job. In the worst case it’ll just be a vacation for you to visit the US and hang out with the LW people that live around here. PM me if you want more info and stuff.
(This also goes for other people who are good programmers who don’t live in Silicon Valley and don’t have a good reason not to move here.)
(Yep, I’m loup-vaillant on HN too)
Thank you, I’ll think about it. Though for now, seriously considering moving to the US tends to trigger my Ugh shields. I’m quite scared.
Don’t feel bad, according to my models, that’s how most people would react (I’ve tried to train myself out of this sort reaction with some success mainly because I used to be really interested in starting companies, which requires this sort of audacious determination). You don’t have to make a decision now. If I were you, I’d just let it be an option in the back of your mind for the time being until you get comfortable enough to think calmly about it.
Scared of?
Hmm, leaving everything and everyone behind, and a general feeling of uncertainty: what live will be like? Will I find a job? Will I enjoy my job (super-important)? How will this affect my relationship with my SO? Less critically, should I bring my Cello, or should I buy another one? What about the rest of my stuff?
We’re not talking moving a couple hundred miles here. I’ve done it for a year and, I could see my family every 3 week-ends, and my SO twice as much. Living in Toulouse, France, I could even push to England if I had a good opportunity. But to go to the US, I have to Cross the Ocean. If I leave this summer and find a job by September, I likely won’t make a single trip back before the next summer.
Also, I don’t think I value money all that much. I mainly care about the sense of security it provides. If I were guaranteed half of what I currently make to work at home on the computer science research that I want to do, I would take it.
So, If I were to move to the US, it couldn’t be just about the money. The job matters. And I’d better get closer to the LW-MIRI-CFAR community. And even then, I’m still not sure. Indefinitely postponing such a big decision is so easy.
Relevant HN thread. Both the SF startups I’ve worked for have/had free meals, flexible work hours, on-premise fun like climbing walls, table tennis, foosball, etc., egalitarian laid-back work environments, and so on. In terms of technology you’re working with, I’d guess that you’re probably more likely to work with something relatively newer and sexier like Hadoop, Ruby on Rails, or node.js here in SF than something like Java. I don’t know what you work with in France. In terms of whether the work is interesting… well, that depends on the startup.
That’s a tougher one… supposedly the dating scene is relatively bad for men in SF, but I only just moved here so I don’t have much firsthand experience. I don’t know what your SO’s visa options would be. I assume she’s not a programmer? If she is, maybe she could apply for a visa too? I don’t know how you guys feel about gaming the US visa system by getting married?
Figure out how much it’s worth to you and how long you’d have to work here in order to buy equivalents for all of it or things that made you equivalently happy with your extra salary?
Do you have any interest in effective altruism?
Well, you can certainly postpone it until we learn what kind of immigration reform, if any, passes. Even then, I think it would only start to take effect at the start of 2014 (but I really have no clue).
I should learn to drive first, though, right?
I don’t have a driver’s license; currently taking BART to work. Our place has reasonably good BART access, and BART goes to SoMa where all the hot startups supposedly are (I’m not very plugged in to the startup scene here, so I won’t be super helpful in finding a job; most of my salary info comes from Quora, GlassDoor.com, and limited personal experience + anecdotes). If lots of LW people respond to this thread, maybe I should start working as recruiter though? :P
In any case, my uninformed guess is that any immigration reform changes will start taking effect at the beginning of 2014, so there will probably be time for you to learn to drive.
The rule of thumb in the US is that the cost to the employer is twice the nominal salary, exactly what you said for France. Instead of paying so much tax, they pay for health insurance, which is probably what JamesF meant by “with benefits.” In some global sense health care is twice as expensive in the US as France.
Ah. I guess I stand corrected, then.
This can be true on the level of society, but on the level of individual the lower salaries for professions like programming are compensated by a stronger welfare system for everyone.
Just to clarify: I did adjust euros to dollars in my estimation. To be more precise, I work in what is mainly a software company (though I’m not myself a programmer), and the standard net salary here is 19K€ per year which makes roughly 25$ per year. Now, of course if you’re really good you can climb the ladder, and there are possible bonus if you reach outstanding results, but this requires more then the “teach yourself programming” level. From what I know, this is pretty much the standard, and a quick google search gives some confirmation of my numbers on this page: http://www.worldsalaries.org/italy.shtml.
It should be noted, though, that all salaries are rescaled roughly in the same way, and the cost of living is lower, so you might need to adjust your usual perspective.
Move somewhere else in the EU?
Except for the programming advice, I disagree with all that. Small town people have more reason to look for you. Bigger town people will not peer pressure you into lifting, they’ll peer pressure you into unhappiness. Lifting itself is one of the worst ways of getting women in terms of time expenditure. It looks like you (mr mind) are optimizing for long-terming women, see my other commentaries for linking on that.
But each of those women has a small pool of men.
The sex ratio is a more important statistic than the absolute female population size, and it’s close to 1 in most places. (OTOH, the absolute female population size does affect whether e.g. numbers’ game is a feasible strategy.)
Given that not all women will be appropriate partners, having there be more of them increases the number of appropriate partners, provided that there’s a sufficiently effective filtering system to ensure that time isn’t wasted on false positives.
And for each woman, not all men will be appropriate partners.