I turned 55 the other day, and lately I’ve thought about my lack of an Adult Man’s Skill Set (AMSS) for dealing with women.
Over the week end, for example, a cute woman in her 20′s I had just met actually made eye contract with me and talked with me.
On the one hand, I enjoyed receiving that sort of attention from a young woman at my age, when in my 20′s women generally wanted nothing to do with me..
But on the other hand, the experience made me uncomfortable because I felt like I had to bluff my way through it, and I kept wondering if she would pick up on the “tells,” as poker players say.
Fortunately nothing bad happened, but these kinds of situations make me extremely self-conscious about my failure to develop the AMSS at the organically appropriate age.
But on the other hand, the experience made me uncomfortable because I felt like I had to bluff my way through it, and I kept wondering if she would pick up on the “tells,” as poker players say.
I wouldn’t confuse this with lacking a skill set. It seems you have developed a skill set for sabotaging yourself.
Why would you even need a special skillset for dealing with women? Just treat them like you would anyone else. You may need specialized skillsets depending on your goals for any given interaction, but that’s a different matter. For instance, if you are debating something, you’ll need some level of debate and persuasion skills, whether your counterparty is a woman or a man.
Why would you even need a special skillset for dealing with women? Just treat them like you would anyone else.
In this case, the interaction raises emotions in him and he doesn’t know how to deal with those emotions.
In general good social interaction often depends on having a decent model of the other person. Not every men is the same and not every women is, on the other hand there are patterns.
There are other social norms for physical contact between males than there are between males and females.
the interaction raises emotions in him and he doesn’t know how to deal with those emotions.
Well, what emotions are we talking about? He mentions that he likes getting attention from them, well, most people like attention and this does not seem to hinder them—quite the contrary.
In general good social interaction often depends on having a decent model of the other person.
This can definitely be a problem in some circumstances. However, for most purposes, the social models of the average man vs. the average woman are not going to diverge in a significant way.
There are other social norms for physical contact between males than there are between males and females.
Physical contact is only really relevant when seeking intimacy. Some folks will aspire to intimacy with both men and women, and as such they would need to be clearly aware of these differences—on the other hand, they seem to be a minority.
The typical man and typical woman have not had the same experiences, because ① they grow up in different bodies, and ② society treats people differently in various ways based on their gender. (Conservatives and feminists should agree on this latter as a matter of fact, although they may assign different values to that fact. Some feminists may think it is bad, and some conservatives may think it is good, but both should agree that it happens.)
Two paths through the same territory do not yield the same map. We should expect that people who have had different experiences will be in possession of different shards of the truth.
He mentions that he likes getting attention from them, well, most people like attention and this does not seem to hinder them—quite the contrary.
The fact that he likes the attention doesn’t mean that he has an established pattern of reacting to it.
However, for most purposes, the social models of the average man vs. the average woman are not going to diverge in a significant way.
At the moment we have a debate about street harassment. We have an attractive women who filmed herself for 10 hours and who argues that she shouldn’t be approached in the way she is. There also an attractive man who went around for 3 hours.
Both get around 10 verbal interactions per hour and the woman has a problem with that while the man doesn’t.
Men generally don’t have a fear to get raped by strangers.
A while ago I went home at 4AM. A female neighbor opened the front door and we got in together. While I don’t know most of my neighbors that live in the building it’s still custom to greet everybody so I wished her a good night.
When we rode the small elevator together she was feeling very uncomfortable.
I didn’t do anything that would make an average man uncomfortable. If I would have had a good model of her than I would have taken the stairs instead of making her uncomfortable.
Shy guys generally don’t ask strangers for help when navigating a part of the town where they don’t know the way. Shy women very often do ask for help.
Physical contact is only really relevant when seeking intimacy.
Depends how you define intimacy. Most friendships do have at least some physical interaction. At our local LW meetups physical contact in forms of hugs is the norm. Of course in many corporate environments all physical contact is looked down upon.
At the moment we have a debate about street harassment. We have an attractive women who filmed herself for 10 hours and who argues that she shouldn’t be approached in the way she is. …
Yes, but the features of the approach are quite different. Men get approached a lot by folks who are selling stuff or fundraising, also by bums/homeless folks. Women get a lot of approaches for personal intimacy, and these do get quite tiring after a while.
Men generally don’t have a fear to get raped by strangers.
A while ago I went home at 4AM. …
Yes, women have to care more about personal safety, out of necessity. Most people are aware of that. But try walking around the sketchy part of town and telling me that some folks don’t make you uncomfortable. This is why we all do things like moving to a “good” neighborhood, or wearing an office suit and tie in order to show our refined professionalism and politeness/civility. All this shows is that variation in local circumstances can lead to subsequent changes in behavior, not that there’s any difference between genders.
Yes, but the features of the approach are quite different. Men get approached a lot by folks who are selling stuff or fundraising, also by bums/homeless folks. Women get a lot of approaches for personal intimacy, and these do get quite tiring after a while.
No, in this case the attractive man also get’s “approaches for personal intimacy” in the same sense that the women gets “approaches for personal intimacy” (she probably wouldn’t label them that way)
Yes, women have to care more about personal safety, out of necessity. Most people are aware of that.
But you deny it above. If I want to interact with another person then it makes sense to factors like that into account. Triggering someone else fear is not good.
Let’s say I meet with a group of four people. 3 of those have little anxiety and are easily hugged. The 4th person has some social anxiety and will likely feel a bit uncomfortable when I hug them.
If the 4th person is a girl I likely won’t force a hug on her. With a guy I often will still hug them. Not hugging them might mean to him that I don’t respect him because he’s the only person I didn’t hug and that might be worse for him then the slight uncomfort of being hugged.
But try walking around the sketchy part of town and telling me that some folks don’t make you uncomfortable.
I do have habitable triggers but if I want I can clear the feeling whenever I want and I will clear them when looking weak would probably make me a more unsafe. Then I’m not typical.
I’m weighing 55kg. I don’t look very threatening. I had decent presence because I was coming from an evening dancing but I didn’t do anything nonverbally that would warrant someone feeling threatened.
subsequent changes in behavior, not that there’s any difference between genders.
For practical purposes behavior that correlates with gender is difference between genders. Behavior is what you care about when it comes to modeling other people for interacting with them.
You may need specialized skillsets depending on your goals for any given interaction
A straight man may have certain goals for most interactions with women that he doesn’t have for any interactions with men. Even if “explore romantic/sexual avenues” isn’t currently an explicit goal, “keep open the future possibility of exploring romantic/sexual avenues” is likely to be there on some level.
I turned 55 the other day, and lately I’ve thought about my lack of an Adult Man’s Skill Set (AMSS) for dealing with women.
Over the week end, for example, a cute woman in her 20′s I had just met actually made eye contract with me and talked with me.
On the one hand, I enjoyed receiving that sort of attention from a young woman at my age, when in my 20′s women generally wanted nothing to do with me..
But on the other hand, the experience made me uncomfortable because I felt like I had to bluff my way through it, and I kept wondering if she would pick up on the “tells,” as poker players say.
Fortunately nothing bad happened, but these kinds of situations make me extremely self-conscious about my failure to develop the AMSS at the organically appropriate age.
I wouldn’t confuse this with lacking a skill set. It seems you have developed a skill set for sabotaging yourself.
Why bluff? I’m sure you have something going for you.
Why would you even need a special skillset for dealing with women? Just treat them like you would anyone else. You may need specialized skillsets depending on your goals for any given interaction, but that’s a different matter. For instance, if you are debating something, you’ll need some level of debate and persuasion skills, whether your counterparty is a woman or a man.
In this case, the interaction raises emotions in him and he doesn’t know how to deal with those emotions.
In general good social interaction often depends on having a decent model of the other person. Not every men is the same and not every women is, on the other hand there are patterns.
There are other social norms for physical contact between males than there are between males and females.
Well, what emotions are we talking about? He mentions that he likes getting attention from them, well, most people like attention and this does not seem to hinder them—quite the contrary.
This can definitely be a problem in some circumstances. However, for most purposes, the social models of the average man vs. the average woman are not going to diverge in a significant way.
Physical contact is only really relevant when seeking intimacy. Some folks will aspire to intimacy with both men and women, and as such they would need to be clearly aware of these differences—on the other hand, they seem to be a minority.
This most definitely has not been my experience.
Well, of course not.
The typical man and typical woman have not had the same experiences, because ① they grow up in different bodies, and ② society treats people differently in various ways based on their gender. (Conservatives and feminists should agree on this latter as a matter of fact, although they may assign different values to that fact. Some feminists may think it is bad, and some conservatives may think it is good, but both should agree that it happens.)
Two paths through the same territory do not yield the same map. We should expect that people who have had different experiences will be in possession of different shards of the truth.
Care to expand on that? AIUI, most domain experts (i.e. folks who care about social interaction, broadly defined) would disagree.
Where did you get that idea?
The fact that he likes the attention doesn’t mean that he has an established pattern of reacting to it.
At the moment we have a debate about street harassment. We have an attractive women who filmed herself for 10 hours and who argues that she shouldn’t be approached in the way she is. There also an attractive man who went around for 3 hours.
Both get around 10 verbal interactions per hour and the woman has a problem with that while the man doesn’t.
Men generally don’t have a fear to get raped by strangers.
A while ago I went home at 4AM. A female neighbor opened the front door and we got in together. While I don’t know most of my neighbors that live in the building it’s still custom to greet everybody so I wished her a good night. When we rode the small elevator together she was feeling very uncomfortable.
I didn’t do anything that would make an average man uncomfortable. If I would have had a good model of her than I would have taken the stairs instead of making her uncomfortable.
Shy guys generally don’t ask strangers for help when navigating a part of the town where they don’t know the way. Shy women very often do ask for help.
Depends how you define intimacy. Most friendships do have at least some physical interaction. At our local LW meetups physical contact in forms of hugs is the norm. Of course in many corporate environments all physical contact is looked down upon.
BTW, that part varies a lot by culture.
Yes, but the features of the approach are quite different. Men get approached a lot by folks who are selling stuff or fundraising, also by bums/homeless folks. Women get a lot of approaches for personal intimacy, and these do get quite tiring after a while.
Yes, women have to care more about personal safety, out of necessity. Most people are aware of that. But try walking around the sketchy part of town and telling me that some folks don’t make you uncomfortable. This is why we all do things like moving to a “good” neighborhood, or wearing an office suit and tie in order to show our refined professionalism and politeness/civility. All this shows is that variation in local circumstances can lead to subsequent changes in behavior, not that there’s any difference between genders.
No, in this case the attractive man also get’s “approaches for personal intimacy” in the same sense that the women gets “approaches for personal intimacy” (she probably wouldn’t label them that way)
But you deny it above. If I want to interact with another person then it makes sense to factors like that into account. Triggering someone else fear is not good.
Let’s say I meet with a group of four people. 3 of those have little anxiety and are easily hugged. The 4th person has some social anxiety and will likely feel a bit uncomfortable when I hug them. If the 4th person is a girl I likely won’t force a hug on her. With a guy I often will still hug them. Not hugging them might mean to him that I don’t respect him because he’s the only person I didn’t hug and that might be worse for him then the slight uncomfort of being hugged.
I do have habitable triggers but if I want I can clear the feeling whenever I want and I will clear them when looking weak would probably make me a more unsafe. Then I’m not typical.
I’m weighing 55kg. I don’t look very threatening. I had decent presence because I was coming from an evening dancing but I didn’t do anything nonverbally that would warrant someone feeling threatened.
For practical purposes behavior that correlates with gender is difference between genders. Behavior is what you care about when it comes to modeling other people for interacting with them.
A straight man may have certain goals for most interactions with women that he doesn’t have for any interactions with men. Even if “explore romantic/sexual avenues” isn’t currently an explicit goal, “keep open the future possibility of exploring romantic/sexual avenues” is likely to be there on some level.
True, but most people (including dating coaches) would agree that this particular goal doesn’t call for any real adjustment on your part.