Keep in mind that sorting by IQ is still a strong political taboo,
With who? Not most Americans, I’d bet. Most Americans accept as obvious that IQ correlates with potential for higher learning.
the cultural and/or economic factors which the policy is intended to address in the first place
So the policy is intended to remake society, not find the students with most potential, or give some extra help to disadvantaged students? This is just a tool to make society look like you want it to look?
Most Americans are strongly opposed to practices such as using IQ to filter applicants for any sort of job, even when IQ strongly correlates with success in that job.
The purpose of the policy is as I outlined in the Blue and Green scenario above; yes, the end goal is to restructure society, so in the long run, certain disadvantages become less systematic and self perpetuating.
Most Americans are strongly opposed to practices such as using IQ to filter applicants for any sort of job, even when IQ strongly correlates with success in that job.
Weren’t we talking about college admissions and potential at college—school? Americans don’t think intelligence is an indicator of potential for school? I really don’t think so.
yes, the end goal is to restructure society
I signed up for helping demonstrably disadvantaged people, particular those with greater potential, not restructure society, and am in general opposed to government efforts to do so.
Weren’t we talking about college admissions and potential at college—school? Americans don’t think intelligence is an indicator of potential for school? I really don’t think so.
Try creating a poll on whether people think colleges ought to be able to look at IQ scores and use them as a criterion to judge between candidates for admissions, and perform it, not at a community like Less Wrong, but somewhere like Times Square. If you think that most people would be in favor of this, I think you should prepare to be surprised.
The idea that IQ tests are actually a good way of measuring something meaningful about a person’s intellectual capacity is itself much maligned in public discourse. It might have a lot of currency on Less Wrong, but that’s not a useful indicator of public attitudes.
The non ideological people I know think being smart helps you perform in school.
99th+ percentile math student here. Working hard helps more. Having the right mental outlook and drive to succeed helps more. Hell, having money arguably helps more.
Being smart doesn’t magically give higher performance in school. You can best model being smart as “certain kinds of problems are easier for smart people”.
Most people accept that being smart helps you perform in school, but that does not mean that they accept that IQ is an appropriate representation of intelligence, or that they support using it to sort people for tasks where intelligence is a significant qualification. Asking people whether they think schools should be able to pick the most intelligent candidates, or sort by IQ, will not get you the same answers.
As mentioned upthread, most people don’t mind sorting on SAT but oppose sorting on IQ. Hypothesis: Any measure that is perceived (correctly or not) to measure native talent accurately will be opposed, because people are afraid that their kids may not be talented “enough”, and if the measure is accurate, they won’t be able to gimmick it. People want a measure they can manipulate to their child’s advantage.
I don’t have any evidence for or against, but it seems plausible to me. I would expect people to want a system that benefits their own kids over others; I would expect that to be something you Can’t Say (because it amounts to defection); and a system that purports to be neutral but is actually gimmickable by the parent (through educational choices) would seem to suit.
[ETA: “Intelligence” as a quality is so nebulous that people won’t mind that, either; if they claim their kid is intelligent, but all measures of it are rejected as invalid for one reason or another, then nothing can prove that their kid is in fact stupid. The state of being intelligent becomes a matter of opinion, not a fact. Opinions are “safe”, in that they can’t be proven wrong; but accepting a measure as valid means accepting that it may measure you and yours as wanting, with no “just your opinion!” or “just socially disadvantaged!” to save you]
Hypothesis: Any measure that is perceived (correctly or not) to measure native talent accurately will be opposed, because people are afraid that their kids may not be talented “enough”, and if the measure is accurate, they won’t be able to gimmick it.
Hypothesis: People prefer an obvious measure, not a speculative one. If you want to measure how good people are at doing something, just let them do it and measure the results. Instead of using a predictor which may or may not work.
SAT is something the child did. IQ is what other people measured about them. SAT is about the potential and one’s ability to use it. IQ is only about the potential. Many factors lead to success in SAT. IQ is only one of them.
I don’t have any evidence for or against, but it seems plausible to me. I would expect people to want a system that benefits their own kids over others; I would expect that to be something you Can’t Say (because it amounts to defection); and a system that purports to be neutral but is actually gimmickable by the parent (through educational choices) would seem to suit.
It’s not something people discuss publicly all that often, but it’s not so taboo that it’s hard to find people who cop to doing it. A lot of parents see fighting for every possible advantage they can get their kids as being part of the fundamentals of being a good parent.
With who? Not most Americans, I’d bet. Most Americans accept as obvious that IQ correlates with potential for higher learning.
So the policy is intended to remake society, not find the students with most potential, or give some extra help to disadvantaged students? This is just a tool to make society look like you want it to look?
Be clear what the goal is.
Most Americans are strongly opposed to practices such as using IQ to filter applicants for any sort of job, even when IQ strongly correlates with success in that job.
The purpose of the policy is as I outlined in the Blue and Green scenario above; yes, the end goal is to restructure society, so in the long run, certain disadvantages become less systematic and self perpetuating.
Weren’t we talking about college admissions and potential at college—school? Americans don’t think intelligence is an indicator of potential for school? I really don’t think so.
I signed up for helping demonstrably disadvantaged people, particular those with greater potential, not restructure society, and am in general opposed to government efforts to do so.
Try creating a poll on whether people think colleges ought to be able to look at IQ scores and use them as a criterion to judge between candidates for admissions, and perform it, not at a community like Less Wrong, but somewhere like Times Square. If you think that most people would be in favor of this, I think you should prepare to be surprised.
The idea that IQ tests are actually a good way of measuring something meaningful about a person’s intellectual capacity is itself much maligned in public discourse. It might have a lot of currency on Less Wrong, but that’s not a useful indicator of public attitudes.
What’s popular at Times Square or in “public discourse” isn’t an accurate indicator of public attitudes across the United States either.
The non ideological people I know think being smart helps you perform in school.
99th+ percentile math student here. Working hard helps more. Having the right mental outlook and drive to succeed helps more. Hell, having money arguably helps more.
Being smart doesn’t magically give higher performance in school. You can best model being smart as “certain kinds of problems are easier for smart people”.
Are said “non ideological people” a majority?
Most people accept that being smart helps you perform in school, but that does not mean that they accept that IQ is an appropriate representation of intelligence, or that they support using it to sort people for tasks where intelligence is a significant qualification. Asking people whether they think schools should be able to pick the most intelligent candidates, or sort by IQ, will not get you the same answers.
As mentioned upthread, most people don’t mind sorting on SAT but oppose sorting on IQ. Hypothesis: Any measure that is perceived (correctly or not) to measure native talent accurately will be opposed, because people are afraid that their kids may not be talented “enough”, and if the measure is accurate, they won’t be able to gimmick it. People want a measure they can manipulate to their child’s advantage.
I don’t have any evidence for or against, but it seems plausible to me. I would expect people to want a system that benefits their own kids over others; I would expect that to be something you Can’t Say (because it amounts to defection); and a system that purports to be neutral but is actually gimmickable by the parent (through educational choices) would seem to suit.
[ETA: “Intelligence” as a quality is so nebulous that people won’t mind that, either; if they claim their kid is intelligent, but all measures of it are rejected as invalid for one reason or another, then nothing can prove that their kid is in fact stupid. The state of being intelligent becomes a matter of opinion, not a fact. Opinions are “safe”, in that they can’t be proven wrong; but accepting a measure as valid means accepting that it may measure you and yours as wanting, with no “just your opinion!” or “just socially disadvantaged!” to save you]
Hypothesis: People prefer an obvious measure, not a speculative one. If you want to measure how good people are at doing something, just let them do it and measure the results. Instead of using a predictor which may or may not work.
SAT is something the child did. IQ is what other people measured about them. SAT is about the potential and one’s ability to use it. IQ is only about the potential. Many factors lead to success in SAT. IQ is only one of them.
It’s not something people discuss publicly all that often, but it’s not so taboo that it’s hard to find people who cop to doing it. A lot of parents see fighting for every possible advantage they can get their kids as being part of the fundamentals of being a good parent.