This does seem like a lot of words to say “sometimes when people say ‘everyone’, they really mean ‘a typical person in my mental model’”. There isn’t a person who conforms to everyone’s mental model in this way. If there was, then they just failed to conform to mine.
It just doesn’t seem to me to be a big thing to get upset about. I’ve known since about the age of six that I didn’t conform to most people’s expectations of how most people behave. It would be a much stranger world if most people did conform in such a way!
This is evidence that the thing you described exists, everyday, even in this more filtered community. Sorry about that.
(The following 3 paragraphs use guesswork and near psychoanalyzing which is sorta distateful—I do it openly because I think it’s got truth to it and I want to be corrected if it’s not. Also hopefully it makes Duncan feel more seen (and I want to know if it’s not the case))
It feels JBlack’s reaction is part of the symptom being described. JBlack is similar in enough ways to have been often ostracized and has come up with a way that’s fine for them to deal with it, and then write “It just doesn’t seem to me to be a big thing to get upset about”, ie. “there exists no one for whom its legitimate to get upset about” ie. “you don’t exist Duncan”. I imagine for you Duncan that’s a frustrating answer when it’s exactly the problem you were trying to convey. (I feel john’s comment is much more appropriate about looking at the problem and saying they can see different solutions without saying that it should apply to you).
I’m interested in why “the thing” was not conveyed to JBlack. One important dimension to differ on is the “intuitively/fundamentally altruistic”. If you are high on that dimension, some things about other people matter in of themselves (and you don’t walk in the Nozick Experience Machine (necessary, not sufficient)). When someone else says they experience this or that, then (as long as you don’t have more evidence that they’re lying/mistaken) you care and believe them. You start from their side and try to build using their models a solution. In this mode, I read your (Duncan) post and am like “hm, I empathize to many parts, I could feel I understand him. But he’s warning strongly that he keeps being misunderstood and not seen, so I’m going to trust him, and keep in mind that my model of him is imprecise/incorrect in many directions and degrees. I’ll keep this in mind in my writing, suggesting models and wanting to get feedback”. I assume JBlack is not so high on the “intuitively/fundamentally altruistic” dimension and processes the world through their experience (I mean this in a stronger way than the tautologically true one, that JBlack discount what others say of their experience strongly based on if it corresponds to their own) and to some extent don’t care about understanding Duncan. So they don’t. I’m saying this because if it’s the case, Duncan’s shrug is appropriate, there’s not much point in trying to reach people who don’t care, it’s not sad to not reach someone who’s unreachable.
It just doesn’t seem to me to be a big thing to get upset about.
What we have here is something of a policydebate, there is something to be upset about. But also great value in mental models that are easy to form, use, and communicate. Being upset is on the other side of this, and it’s valuable to be aware that both sides are there, to avoid a systematic distortion in perception of their relative import when looking at the debate from a particular side of it.
It’s not a big thing to get upset about if you’re not in a culture that highly values community and social cohesion—where it can be quite emotionally exhausting to always conform/accommodate to the thinking and values (mental models?) of others.
And of course I don’t want to upset anyone, the post is worthwhile (and powerful) because it describes behaviors that might lead people to give up on finding community, fulfilling relationships or common ground. For me it was an invitation to better describe or explain these behaviors and a twofold message:
1). don’t give up, you’re not alone
2). keep an open mind with other’s perspectives
Seconding this. The phenomenon where people say “everyone this” and “everyone that”, and you’re an even slightly “weird” person (such as, like, everyone on this entire website), and you think “not me!”… that is, in fact, so common that even saying it out loud is trite. Yeah, of course not literally everyone, and you already know you’re weird, so especially probably not you specifically.
dude, this is incredibly rude. yeah, I mean, of course agreed, but duncan said he knew that. I also find it slightly surprising it pushed his buttons as hard as it seems to have, but, that’s how he’s shaped. He’s saying it still happens even in crowds like this one, anyhow.
(I note that I don’t think it’s rude so much as … not particularly useful? Like, it’s mostly evidence that Said (also JBlack) has completely failed to parse my point (and has failed to keep “maybe there’s something I’m not seeing/am blind to” in mind as a possibility, and instead concluded “there’s nothing here except something trite/trivial/silly.”))
For information I’d also qualify Said’s statement as unkind (because of “saying it out loud is trite”) if I modeled him as having understood or caring about Duncan and his point, but because that’s not the case I understand Duncan just seeing it as not useful. “Rude” is a classification depending on shared social norms. On LW I don’t think people are supposed to care about you, the basic assumption is more Rand like individuals who trade ideas because it’s positive sum. That a lot of people happen to be nice is a nice surprise, but it’s not expected, and I have gotten value from Said’s comments in many places over time so I feel the LW norm makes sense.
This does seem like a lot of words to say “sometimes when people say ‘everyone’, they really mean ‘a typical person in my mental model’”. There isn’t a person who conforms to everyone’s mental model in this way. If there was, then they just failed to conform to mine.
It just doesn’t seem to me to be a big thing to get upset about. I’ve known since about the age of six that I didn’t conform to most people’s expectations of how most people behave. It would be a much stranger world if most people did conform in such a way!
This is evidence that my attempt to convey the thing failed to work with you particularly. *shrug*
This is evidence that the thing you described exists, everyday, even in this more filtered community. Sorry about that.
(The following 3 paragraphs use guesswork and near psychoanalyzing which is sorta distateful—I do it openly because I think it’s got truth to it and I want to be corrected if it’s not. Also hopefully it makes Duncan feel more seen (and I want to know if it’s not the case))
It feels JBlack’s reaction is part of the symptom being described. JBlack is similar in enough ways to have been often ostracized and has come up with a way that’s fine for them to deal with it, and then write “It just doesn’t seem to me to be a big thing to get upset about”, ie. “there exists no one for whom its legitimate to get upset about” ie. “you don’t exist Duncan”. I imagine for you Duncan that’s a frustrating answer when it’s exactly the problem you were trying to convey. (I feel john’s comment is much more appropriate about looking at the problem and saying they can see different solutions without saying that it should apply to you).
I’m interested in why “the thing” was not conveyed to JBlack.
One important dimension to differ on is the “intuitively/fundamentally altruistic”. If you are high on that dimension, some things about other people matter in of themselves (and you don’t walk in the Nozick Experience Machine (necessary, not sufficient)). When someone else says they experience this or that, then (as long as you don’t have more evidence that they’re lying/mistaken) you care and believe them. You start from their side and try to build using their models a solution. In this mode, I read your (Duncan) post and am like “hm, I empathize to many parts, I could feel I understand him. But he’s warning strongly that he keeps being misunderstood and not seen, so I’m going to trust him, and keep in mind that my model of him is imprecise/incorrect in many directions and degrees. I’ll keep this in mind in my writing, suggesting models and wanting to get feedback”.
I assume JBlack is not so high on the “intuitively/fundamentally altruistic” dimension and processes the world through their experience (I mean this in a stronger way than the tautologically true one, that JBlack discount what others say of their experience strongly based on if it corresponds to their own) and to some extent don’t care about understanding Duncan. So they don’t.
I’m saying this because if it’s the case, Duncan’s shrug is appropriate, there’s not much point in trying to reach people who don’t care, it’s not sad to not reach someone who’s unreachable.
What we have here is something of a policy debate, there is something to be upset about. But also great value in mental models that are easy to form, use, and communicate. Being upset is on the other side of this, and it’s valuable to be aware that both sides are there, to avoid a systematic distortion in perception of their relative import when looking at the debate from a particular side of it.
It’s not a big thing to get upset about if you’re not in a culture that highly values community and social cohesion—where it can be quite emotionally exhausting to always conform/accommodate to the thinking and values (mental models?) of others.
And of course I don’t want to upset anyone, the post is worthwhile (and powerful) because it describes behaviors that might lead people to give up on finding community, fulfilling relationships or common ground. For me it was an invitation to better describe or explain these behaviors and a twofold message: 1). don’t give up, you’re not alone 2). keep an open mind with other’s perspectives
Seconding this. The phenomenon where people say “everyone this” and “everyone that”, and you’re an even slightly “weird” person (such as, like, everyone on this entire website), and you think “not me!”… that is, in fact, so common that even saying it out loud is trite. Yeah, of course not literally everyone, and you already know you’re weird, so especially probably not you specifically.
dude, this is incredibly rude. yeah, I mean, of course agreed, but duncan said he knew that. I also find it slightly surprising it pushed his buttons as hard as it seems to have, but, that’s how he’s shaped. He’s saying it still happens even in crowds like this one, anyhow.
Rude? What…? I’m agreeing with the comment that I replied to.
(I note that I don’t think it’s rude so much as … not particularly useful? Like, it’s mostly evidence that Said (also JBlack) has completely failed to parse my point (and has failed to keep “maybe there’s something I’m not seeing/am blind to” in mind as a possibility, and instead concluded “there’s nothing here except something trite/trivial/silly.”))
fair enough.
For information I’d also qualify Said’s statement as unkind (because of “saying it out loud is trite”) if I modeled him as having understood or caring about Duncan and his point, but because that’s not the case I understand Duncan just seeing it as not useful.
“Rude” is a classification depending on shared social norms. On LW I don’t think people are supposed to care about you, the basic assumption is more Rand like individuals who trade ideas because it’s positive sum. That a lot of people happen to be nice is a nice surprise, but it’s not expected, and I have gotten value from Said’s comments in many places over time so I feel the LW norm makes sense.