This is important, not just for the specifics, but to remember that some pattern of behavior which seems absolutely innate may actually be culturally localized.
So, are there geeky people in Europe? If so, what are they doing instead of science and engineering?
This is important, not just for the specifics, but to remember that some pattern of behavior which seems absolutely innate is actually culturally localized.
I don’t see why these specific patterns of behavior would seem “absolutely innate” even looking only at the U.S. There are lots of non-nerdy people with high intelligence, and I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t excel in “nerdy” professions if they chose to enter them in large numbers. In my opinion, the main reason why non-nerdy smart people go mainly into non-technical professions is that in the American society, technical professions, on the whole, offer relatively low status considering the demands they impose.
So, are there geeky people in Europe? If so, what are they doing instead of science and engineering?
Where I lived in Europe (various places in ex-Yugoslavia), we’ve never really had anything comparable to the American notion of “geeks” and “nerds.” It’s hard to find even an approximate translation for these words which would have all the connotations of high intelligence combined with social ineptness, lack of masculinity, and obsessive interest in obscure and unpopular things.
We do have words that denote these qualities separately, or for people who put excessive effort into success in school while lacking real-life skills and smarts, or who achieve high grades thanks to cramming rather than smarts and talent, etc., etc., and various terms of this sort are used to translate “nerd/geek” in different contexts. But there is no accurate translation, simply because there is no striking correlation between all these attributes. (That said, in recent years some of the American “geek” culture has been making inroads, but even what exists of it is still not comparable, since there is both less social nerdiness involved and much less correlation with interest, let alone high achievement, in science and engineering.)
Partly this is because technical professions have higher relative status, so they attract plenty of intelligent people who are not at all deficient in social skills. The other reason is a very different youth culture and education system. As far as I see, these different circumstances usually tend to attenuate people’s innate lack of sociability, rather than, as happens in the U.S., exacerbate it and force intelligent introverts to seek company and respect in “geeky” social circles and activities, since they can’t find them anywhere else.
All that said, this situation still does not mean that success in courting women is more evenly distributed among men. On the contrary: the attention of attractive women, and the overwhelming part of casual sex that takes place, is still restricted to the minority of men who are attractive by pretty much the same criteria as anywhere else. It’s just that you’ll find many more such men (as well as less attractive, but still far from nerdy men) among people doing technical professions and having various intellectual interests that are stereotyped as “geeky” in the U.S.
Vladimir M asserts that in Europe, “technical professions have higher relative status”.
That agrees with my experience. My mom used to say that my engineer father would have higher status if he lived in the old country. Also, when letters from Europe arrived for my dad, his name was sometimes prefaced with the honorific “Ing.” which is short for “Ingenieur”, which means “Engineer”.
The other reason is a very different youth culture and education system. As far as I see, these different circumstances usually tend to attenuate people’s innate lack of sociability, rather than, as happens in the U.S., exacerbate it and force intelligent introverts to seek company and respect in “geeky” social circles and activities, since they can’t find them anywhere else.
How is the educational system different?
As you may know, there’s been a lot of interest lately in the US about how to lessen or eliminate bullying in schools—there’ve been a number of suicides lately resulting from years of severe bullying.
The only structural cause I’ve seen suggested (as distinct from recommendations of active anti-bullying programs) is the high emphasis on competitive athletics, and in particular, athletic competitions between schools.
The other question is whether there’s a process of bullying/ostracism in European schools which is aimed at other sorts of people.
I don’t have anything resembling a complete theory of these differences. It’s certainly not about some clearly identifiable and straightforward organizational aspects that could be reformed in a planned way, and there are definitely deep cultural differences involved.
One organizational difference that seems significant, though, is that I went through a system that had tracking done in such a way that smart kids of all sorts ended up separated from the not so bright ones, but largely mixed together, without being allowed to segregate by electing different coursework. (You had a choice of high schools with different curriculums, but everyone within the same high school had to learn the same, usually eclectic mix of things.) This did seem to create an optimal environment for introverted smart kids to grow up without being exposed to bullying (which was unheard of in the high school I went to), and giving them less inclination and opportunity to self-segregate into “nerdy” cliques.
There is bullying/ostracism however it isn’t as formalised.
I would be tempted to blame the sports. Simply it creates an in group of people that are considered higher status. There are pep rallies to them, with beautiful girls cheering them on, that has to create an inflated sense of worth/superiority/difference.
So they persecute the out group, the geeks, to signal their in-group ness and preserve their sense of superiority. I suppose it is similar to the stanford prison experiment. Raise one group above another and that group seems to persecute the other.
I would be tempted to blame the sports. Simply it creates an in group of people that are considered higher status. There are pep rallies to them, with beautiful girls cheering them on, that has to create an inflated sense of worth/superiority/difference.
It’s definitely not the sports that do it. You may be right about all the rest of the stuff that is associated with sport over there. Cheerleaders? That’s not just in the teen movies right, you actually have them?
Does being a nerd and a good athlete seem out of place in that culture? Come to think of it there is a separate group for ‘band nerds’ too if my consumption of low grade entertainment is anything to go by. I wouldn’t know where to put myself!
Yeah by sports I meant the importance given to it. In comparison we don’t have such things as sports scholarships (irrespective of academic talent, which I think is called an entrance scholarship) for prestigious universities. Does Australia?
I’m a Pom, so my exposure to American culture is mainly fictional in nature as well. I’ve seen a number of documentaries as well though. The BBC loves analysing the US.
Yeah by sports I meant the importance given to it. In comparison we don’t have such things as sports scholarships (irrespective of academic talent, which I think is called an entrance scholarship) for prestigious universities. Does Australia?
Heck no. University sports here are relatively obscure. They are there for students who enjoy them but they are approximately status neutral.
Athletes don’t do all the bullying—not even most of it, I think.
That’s not a necessary implication of whpearson’s theory. Once the athleete/nerd stratification has been established, it may create bullying incentives for those who are physically stronger than the nerds, but not part of the elite athlete circle. Such individuals will want to assert superiority to the nerds to at least confirm their middle-rank status if they can’t achieve the top one, and bullying seems like a straightforward strategy.
I didn’t go myself through the American school system, though, so I have no idea how well this hypothesis holds water.
Once the athleete/nerd stratification has been established, it may create bullying incentives for those who are physically stronger than the nerds, but not part of the elite athlete circle. Such individuals will want to assert superiority to the nerds to at least confirm their middle-rank status if they can’t achieve the top one, and bullying seems like a straightforward strategy.
I didn’t go through the American school system either but your theory seems to match with general observable tendencies. Bullying and crude social aggression isn’t an indicator of high status so much as an indicator of ‘medium high status that requires effort to maintain’. This is why I make sure I never work for an insecure boss.
If you mean people that don’t like to party, then from my experience they are doing science and engineering and probably some humanities as well. They also generally co-exist quite happily with the party-ers, at least at University level.
I’ve just realised how much we have a cultural one way mirror. I’ve seen fictional depictions of fraternities, keg standing, hazing etc, however you probably haven’t seen what a European rock concert is like. Which is generally non-violent, unless you get in the mosh pit.
I say European, but in some ways I have less idea of what mainland European social life is like than American.
Vladimir_M’s “high intelligence combined with social ineptness, lack of masculinity, and obsessive interest in obscure and unpopular things” is good enough except that I’d add lack of femininity to the list.
One horrifying feature of American culture in the 50s was that intelligence was considered not masculine and not feminine, and since everyone was supposed to be one or the other, being visibly intelligent had a social cost. In my opinion, a major (but incomplete) change in this happened when it was clear that people could make money in IT. I’m inclined to think the Flynn effect is also taking hold.
From a science fiction convention: A women mentions that sometimes she feels she’s just got to do something different with her hair, and fannish women are apt to look at her as though she’s crazy.
Historical note: I think that identifying interest in dressing up with being effeminate is a modern weirdness. The only culture I can think of where men and women who could afford to didn’t get about equally elaborate and showy was colonial America, and in that case, the men were dressier.
Afaik, American rock concerts are mostly non-violent, but this is very much second hand. Anyone have more information?
Every mainstream rock concert I’ve ever been to in the US has been entirely non-violent, modulo the occasional and mostly unrelated edge cases that arise when you get a thousand drunk people together. Even metal and punk concerts aren’t violent outside of the mosh pit, and I’m not sure that properly counts as violence, being consensual and generally not aimed at causing injury.
Sounds a lot like the European case, in other words.
This is important, not just for the specifics, but to remember that some pattern of behavior which seems absolutely innate may actually be culturally localized.
So, are there geeky people in Europe? If so, what are they doing instead of science and engineering?
NancyLebovitz:
I don’t see why these specific patterns of behavior would seem “absolutely innate” even looking only at the U.S. There are lots of non-nerdy people with high intelligence, and I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t excel in “nerdy” professions if they chose to enter them in large numbers. In my opinion, the main reason why non-nerdy smart people go mainly into non-technical professions is that in the American society, technical professions, on the whole, offer relatively low status considering the demands they impose.
Where I lived in Europe (various places in ex-Yugoslavia), we’ve never really had anything comparable to the American notion of “geeks” and “nerds.” It’s hard to find even an approximate translation for these words which would have all the connotations of high intelligence combined with social ineptness, lack of masculinity, and obsessive interest in obscure and unpopular things.
We do have words that denote these qualities separately, or for people who put excessive effort into success in school while lacking real-life skills and smarts, or who achieve high grades thanks to cramming rather than smarts and talent, etc., etc., and various terms of this sort are used to translate “nerd/geek” in different contexts. But there is no accurate translation, simply because there is no striking correlation between all these attributes. (That said, in recent years some of the American “geek” culture has been making inroads, but even what exists of it is still not comparable, since there is both less social nerdiness involved and much less correlation with interest, let alone high achievement, in science and engineering.)
Partly this is because technical professions have higher relative status, so they attract plenty of intelligent people who are not at all deficient in social skills. The other reason is a very different youth culture and education system. As far as I see, these different circumstances usually tend to attenuate people’s innate lack of sociability, rather than, as happens in the U.S., exacerbate it and force intelligent introverts to seek company and respect in “geeky” social circles and activities, since they can’t find them anywhere else.
All that said, this situation still does not mean that success in courting women is more evenly distributed among men. On the contrary: the attention of attractive women, and the overwhelming part of casual sex that takes place, is still restricted to the minority of men who are attractive by pretty much the same criteria as anywhere else. It’s just that you’ll find many more such men (as well as less attractive, but still far from nerdy men) among people doing technical professions and having various intellectual interests that are stereotyped as “geeky” in the U.S.
Vladimir M asserts that in Europe, “technical professions have higher relative status”.
That agrees with my experience. My mom used to say that my engineer father would have higher status if he lived in the old country. Also, when letters from Europe arrived for my dad, his name was sometimes prefaced with the honorific “Ing.” which is short for “Ingenieur”, which means “Engineer”.
How is the educational system different?
As you may know, there’s been a lot of interest lately in the US about how to lessen or eliminate bullying in schools—there’ve been a number of suicides lately resulting from years of severe bullying.
The only structural cause I’ve seen suggested (as distinct from recommendations of active anti-bullying programs) is the high emphasis on competitive athletics, and in particular, athletic competitions between schools.
The other question is whether there’s a process of bullying/ostracism in European schools which is aimed at other sorts of people.
NancyLebovitz:
I don’t have anything resembling a complete theory of these differences. It’s certainly not about some clearly identifiable and straightforward organizational aspects that could be reformed in a planned way, and there are definitely deep cultural differences involved.
One organizational difference that seems significant, though, is that I went through a system that had tracking done in such a way that smart kids of all sorts ended up separated from the not so bright ones, but largely mixed together, without being allowed to segregate by electing different coursework. (You had a choice of high schools with different curriculums, but everyone within the same high school had to learn the same, usually eclectic mix of things.) This did seem to create an optimal environment for introverted smart kids to grow up without being exposed to bullying (which was unheard of in the high school I went to), and giving them less inclination and opportunity to self-segregate into “nerdy” cliques.
There is bullying/ostracism however it isn’t as formalised.
I would be tempted to blame the sports. Simply it creates an in group of people that are considered higher status. There are pep rallies to them, with beautiful girls cheering them on, that has to create an inflated sense of worth/superiority/difference.
So they persecute the out group, the geeks, to signal their in-group ness and preserve their sense of superiority. I suppose it is similar to the stanford prison experiment. Raise one group above another and that group seems to persecute the other.
It’s definitely not the sports that do it. You may be right about all the rest of the stuff that is associated with sport over there. Cheerleaders? That’s not just in the teen movies right, you actually have them?
Does being a nerd and a good athlete seem out of place in that culture? Come to think of it there is a separate group for ‘band nerds’ too if my consumption of low grade entertainment is anything to go by. I wouldn’t know where to put myself!
Yeah by sports I meant the importance given to it. In comparison we don’t have such things as sports scholarships (irrespective of academic talent, which I think is called an entrance scholarship) for prestigious universities. Does Australia?
I’m a Pom, so my exposure to American culture is mainly fictional in nature as well. I’ve seen a number of documentaries as well though. The BBC loves analysing the US.
Heck no. University sports here are relatively obscure. They are there for students who enjoy them but they are approximately status neutral.
High school cheerleaders at a game.
This was actually a little harder to find than cheerleading competitions. It’s morphed into its own sport.
Athletes don’t do all the bullying—not even most of it, I think.
It’s possible that the high emphasis on sports poisons the whole atmosphere.
NancyLebovitz:
That’s not a necessary implication of whpearson’s theory. Once the athleete/nerd stratification has been established, it may create bullying incentives for those who are physically stronger than the nerds, but not part of the elite athlete circle. Such individuals will want to assert superiority to the nerds to at least confirm their middle-rank status if they can’t achieve the top one, and bullying seems like a straightforward strategy.
I didn’t go myself through the American school system, though, so I have no idea how well this hypothesis holds water.
I didn’t go through the American school system either but your theory seems to match with general observable tendencies. Bullying and crude social aggression isn’t an indicator of high status so much as an indicator of ‘medium high status that requires effort to maintain’. This is why I make sure I never work for an insecure boss.
Define what you mean by geeky...
If you mean people that don’t like to party, then from my experience they are doing science and engineering and probably some humanities as well. They also generally co-exist quite happily with the party-ers, at least at University level.
I’ve just realised how much we have a cultural one way mirror. I’ve seen fictional depictions of fraternities, keg standing, hazing etc, however you probably haven’t seen what a European rock concert is like. Which is generally non-violent, unless you get in the mosh pit.
I say European, but in some ways I have less idea of what mainland European social life is like than American.
Vladimir_M’s “high intelligence combined with social ineptness, lack of masculinity, and obsessive interest in obscure and unpopular things” is good enough except that I’d add lack of femininity to the list.
One horrifying feature of American culture in the 50s was that intelligence was considered not masculine and not feminine, and since everyone was supposed to be one or the other, being visibly intelligent had a social cost. In my opinion, a major (but incomplete) change in this happened when it was clear that people could make money in IT. I’m inclined to think the Flynn effect is also taking hold.
From a science fiction convention: A women mentions that sometimes she feels she’s just got to do something different with her hair, and fannish women are apt to look at her as though she’s crazy.
Historical note: I think that identifying interest in dressing up with being effeminate is a modern weirdness. The only culture I can think of where men and women who could afford to didn’t get about equally elaborate and showy was colonial America, and in that case, the men were dressier.
Afaik, American rock concerts are mostly non-violent, but this is very much second hand. Anyone have more information?
Every mainstream rock concert I’ve ever been to in the US has been entirely non-violent, modulo the occasional and mostly unrelated edge cases that arise when you get a thousand drunk people together. Even metal and punk concerts aren’t violent outside of the mosh pit, and I’m not sure that properly counts as violence, being consensual and generally not aimed at causing injury.
Sounds a lot like the European case, in other words.