In the original, there’s an observable pattern to these “levels”, alternating between multiple contradictory models, and then a new model in which the various previously-contradictory models are reconciled into a unified framework. Even numbers are a cohesive framework, odd numbers are multiple-competing-model frameworks.
This pattern is conspicuously absent from Tim’s reconstruction. The level 3 people don’t share or understand the level 2 people’s concerns; in truth, they’re merely level 2 people of Tim’s favored tribe. The Level 4 described is just Tim’s level 3 with a hint of understanding of level 2 concerns; in truth, they’re level 3 people of Tim’s disfavored tribe. Tim’s level 5, Postermodernism, is a Level 3 of Tim’s-favored-tribe understanding of Level 5.
IOW, this farming is just predictable and blatant tribalism of the form of placing your own way of thinking as being “superior” to the opposing tribe’s way of thinking.
This was part of a much larger discussion so a lot is omitted here.
In kegan’s books, people at ‘higher’ levels sometimes lose something that the lower levels have. Level 4 people can lose a sense of intimacy and connection with other people, God etc. Level 3 people often fail to appreciate level 2 people’s mindset. Level 4 people can lack a sense of immediacy that level 2 people have.
The progression in Kegan’s book is really about the fact that what you are subject to at one level becomes object at the next level. It does not require that Level X people fully understand people at ‘lower’ levels.
I guess in one sense I have succeeded because your guess at my favored view is entirely wrong. I was trying not to make an argument about refugee policy but to illustrate various kinds of thinking.
The progression in Kegan’s book is really about the fact that what you are subject to at one level becomes object at the next level. It does not require that Level X people fully understand people at ‘lower’ levels.
No, that is not what the progression is “really about”. And yes, you have to be able to understand people at “lower levels” in order to be at a higher level. A Level 4 Person might not have a sense of intimacy or connection—but they have to be able to understand that other people have intimacy and connections.
I guess in one sense I have succeeded because your guess at my favored view is entirely wrong. I was trying not to make an argument about refugee policy but to illustrate various kinds of thinking.
So what is your favored view, and how does it meaningfully differ from the Postmodern view you espouse as the Level 5 solution?
In the original, there’s an observable pattern to these “levels”, alternating between multiple contradictory models, and then a new model in which the various previously-contradictory models are reconciled into a unified framework. Even numbers are a cohesive framework, odd numbers are multiple-competing-model frameworks.
This pattern is conspicuously absent from Tim’s reconstruction. The level 3 people don’t share or understand the level 2 people’s concerns; in truth, they’re merely level 2 people of Tim’s favored tribe. The Level 4 described is just Tim’s level 3 with a hint of understanding of level 2 concerns; in truth, they’re level 3 people of Tim’s disfavored tribe. Tim’s level 5, Postermodernism, is a Level 3 of Tim’s-favored-tribe understanding of Level 5.
IOW, this farming is just predictable and blatant tribalism of the form of placing your own way of thinking as being “superior” to the opposing tribe’s way of thinking.
This was part of a much larger discussion so a lot is omitted here.
In kegan’s books, people at ‘higher’ levels sometimes lose something that the lower levels have. Level 4 people can lose a sense of intimacy and connection with other people, God etc. Level 3 people often fail to appreciate level 2 people’s mindset. Level 4 people can lack a sense of immediacy that level 2 people have.
The progression in Kegan’s book is really about the fact that what you are subject to at one level becomes object at the next level. It does not require that Level X people fully understand people at ‘lower’ levels.
I guess in one sense I have succeeded because your guess at my favored view is entirely wrong. I was trying not to make an argument about refugee policy but to illustrate various kinds of thinking.
No, that is not what the progression is “really about”. And yes, you have to be able to understand people at “lower levels” in order to be at a higher level. A Level 4 Person might not have a sense of intimacy or connection—but they have to be able to understand that other people have intimacy and connections.
So what is your favored view, and how does it meaningfully differ from the Postmodern view you espouse as the Level 5 solution?