Is there a implication of ranking with the way the levels are numbered? Are Level 5 people “more advanced” than lower levels and should one strive to move up levels?
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see post-modernists as the ultimate peak of human thinking.
In the original, there’s an observable pattern to these “levels”, alternating between multiple contradictory models, and then a new model in which the various previously-contradictory models are reconciled into a unified framework. Even numbers are a cohesive framework, odd numbers are multiple-competing-model frameworks.
This pattern is conspicuously absent from Tim’s reconstruction. The level 3 people don’t share or understand the level 2 people’s concerns; in truth, they’re merely level 2 people of Tim’s favored tribe. The Level 4 described is just Tim’s level 3 with a hint of understanding of level 2 concerns; in truth, they’re level 3 people of Tim’s disfavored tribe. Tim’s level 5, Postermodernism, is a Level 3 of Tim’s-favored-tribe understanding of Level 5.
IOW, this farming is just predictable and blatant tribalism of the form of placing your own way of thinking as being “superior” to the opposing tribe’s way of thinking.
This was part of a much larger discussion so a lot is omitted here.
In kegan’s books, people at ‘higher’ levels sometimes lose something that the lower levels have. Level 4 people can lose a sense of intimacy and connection with other people, God etc. Level 3 people often fail to appreciate level 2 people’s mindset. Level 4 people can lack a sense of immediacy that level 2 people have.
The progression in Kegan’s book is really about the fact that what you are subject to at one level becomes object at the next level. It does not require that Level X people fully understand people at ‘lower’ levels.
I guess in one sense I have succeeded because your guess at my favored view is entirely wrong. I was trying not to make an argument about refugee policy but to illustrate various kinds of thinking.
The progression in Kegan’s book is really about the fact that what you are subject to at one level becomes object at the next level. It does not require that Level X people fully understand people at ‘lower’ levels.
No, that is not what the progression is “really about”. And yes, you have to be able to understand people at “lower levels” in order to be at a higher level. A Level 4 Person might not have a sense of intimacy or connection—but they have to be able to understand that other people have intimacy and connections.
I guess in one sense I have succeeded because your guess at my favored view is entirely wrong. I was trying not to make an argument about refugee policy but to illustrate various kinds of thinking.
So what is your favored view, and how does it meaningfully differ from the Postmodern view you espouse as the Level 5 solution?
Kegan points out that many who fancy themselves as postmodernists are actually trapped in level 3. They have been told that modernism has its flaws and there therefore reject it and stay at level 3. This fits some young people in college.
A level 5 would be post-modern in the sense that they have mastered modernist ideas but are not trapped within them.
Is there a implication of ranking with the way the levels are numbered? Are Level 5 people “more advanced” than lower levels and should one strive to move up levels?
The linked post gives a brief overview. The higher levels are ‘more advanced’ in that there is an asymmetry; the level 5 can emulate a level 4 more easily than a level 4 can emulate a level 5. But that doesn’t translate to ‘more advanced’ in all possible meanings. A relevant quote from the link:
Kegan likes to make the analogy of comparing drivers who can drive a stick-shift with drivers who only drive an automatic. Can we say that someone is a “better driver” simply because they can drive a stick?
My experience is that it’s related to, but distinct from, g. High g and more mature age make the higher levels easier but don’t create them on their own.
Why would a high-IQ level 4 person have trouble emulating level 5? See e.g. Sokal, etc.
ETA: I looked through the linked article and I stick by my impression that this is a straightforward IQ ladder modified by “maturity” (appropriate socio-emotional development, I guess?) In particular, I expect that levels have pretty hard IQ requirements, e.g. a person with the IQ of 80 just won’t make it to Level 4.
I think it is partly linked to IQ. I agree that there are probably limits to the levels people at low IQs can achieve,
But there is also a development process that takes time. Few teenagers, no matter how smart, are at level 5 Think by analogy that few 15 year old people have mastered quantum field theory. No matter how smart you are it takes time
Sokal is emulating level 3 people who think they are level 5. These people are anti-modern not post-modern. Most post-modernists are at level 3 as far as I can tell. I have been trawling through their works to assess this.
A level 5 physicist might be someone like say Robert Laughlin a Nobel Physicist who wrote a book “A Different Universe” questioning how fundamental ‘fundamental’ physics is. He has mastered modernist physics and is now building on this. This is very different from a Deepak Chopra type who doesn’t even get to first base in this enterprise.
I don’t think Sokal is an example of systems of systems thinking. (The post-modernist label is not a particularly useful one; here it means the level after the modernist level, and is only partly connected to other things called post-modernist.)
Why would a high-IQ person have trouble emulating someone of the opposite sex? (There doesn’t appear to be the same asymmetry—both men and women seem bad at modeling each other—but hopefully this will point out the sort of features that might be relevant.)
Some charitable reading is required; the labels are oversimplifications.
I agree that most post-modernists are merely pretending to be at some high level of thinking, and the reason it works for them is that most of their colleagues are in exactly the same situation, so they pass the “peer review”. But we can still use them as a pointer towards the real thing. What would be the useful mental skills that these people are pretending to have?
I remember reading somewhere about a similar model, but for the given question, on each level both “pro” and “con” positions were provided. That made it easier for the reader to focus on the difference between the levels.
Is there a implication of ranking with the way the levels are numbered? Are Level 5 people “more advanced” than lower levels and should one strive to move up levels?
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see post-modernists as the ultimate peak of human thinking.
In the original, there’s an observable pattern to these “levels”, alternating between multiple contradictory models, and then a new model in which the various previously-contradictory models are reconciled into a unified framework. Even numbers are a cohesive framework, odd numbers are multiple-competing-model frameworks.
This pattern is conspicuously absent from Tim’s reconstruction. The level 3 people don’t share or understand the level 2 people’s concerns; in truth, they’re merely level 2 people of Tim’s favored tribe. The Level 4 described is just Tim’s level 3 with a hint of understanding of level 2 concerns; in truth, they’re level 3 people of Tim’s disfavored tribe. Tim’s level 5, Postermodernism, is a Level 3 of Tim’s-favored-tribe understanding of Level 5.
IOW, this farming is just predictable and blatant tribalism of the form of placing your own way of thinking as being “superior” to the opposing tribe’s way of thinking.
This was part of a much larger discussion so a lot is omitted here.
In kegan’s books, people at ‘higher’ levels sometimes lose something that the lower levels have. Level 4 people can lose a sense of intimacy and connection with other people, God etc. Level 3 people often fail to appreciate level 2 people’s mindset. Level 4 people can lack a sense of immediacy that level 2 people have.
The progression in Kegan’s book is really about the fact that what you are subject to at one level becomes object at the next level. It does not require that Level X people fully understand people at ‘lower’ levels.
I guess in one sense I have succeeded because your guess at my favored view is entirely wrong. I was trying not to make an argument about refugee policy but to illustrate various kinds of thinking.
No, that is not what the progression is “really about”. And yes, you have to be able to understand people at “lower levels” in order to be at a higher level. A Level 4 Person might not have a sense of intimacy or connection—but they have to be able to understand that other people have intimacy and connections.
So what is your favored view, and how does it meaningfully differ from the Postmodern view you espouse as the Level 5 solution?
Kegan points out that many who fancy themselves as postmodernists are actually trapped in level 3. They have been told that modernism has its flaws and there therefore reject it and stay at level 3. This fits some young people in college.
A level 5 would be post-modern in the sense that they have mastered modernist ideas but are not trapped within them.
The linked post gives a brief overview. The higher levels are ‘more advanced’ in that there is an asymmetry; the level 5 can emulate a level 4 more easily than a level 4 can emulate a level 5. But that doesn’t translate to ‘more advanced’ in all possible meanings. A relevant quote from the link:
So the implication is that’s a straight IQ ladder, then. My original objection stands.
My experience is that it’s related to, but distinct from, g. High g and more mature age make the higher levels easier but don’t create them on their own.
Why would a high-IQ level 4 person have trouble emulating level 5? See e.g. Sokal, etc.
ETA: I looked through the linked article and I stick by my impression that this is a straightforward IQ ladder modified by “maturity” (appropriate socio-emotional development, I guess?) In particular, I expect that levels have pretty hard IQ requirements, e.g. a person with the IQ of 80 just won’t make it to Level 4.
I think it is partly linked to IQ. I agree that there are probably limits to the levels people at low IQs can achieve,
But there is also a development process that takes time. Few teenagers, no matter how smart, are at level 5 Think by analogy that few 15 year old people have mastered quantum field theory. No matter how smart you are it takes time
Sokal is emulating level 3 people who think they are level 5. These people are anti-modern not post-modern. Most post-modernists are at level 3 as far as I can tell. I have been trawling through their works to assess this.
A level 5 physicist might be someone like say Robert Laughlin a Nobel Physicist who wrote a book “A Different Universe” questioning how fundamental ‘fundamental’ physics is. He has mastered modernist physics and is now building on this. This is very different from a Deepak Chopra type who doesn’t even get to first base in this enterprise.
I don’t think Sokal is an example of systems of systems thinking. (The post-modernist label is not a particularly useful one; here it means the level after the modernist level, and is only partly connected to other things called post-modernist.)
Why would a high-IQ person have trouble emulating someone of the opposite sex? (There doesn’t appear to be the same asymmetry—both men and women seem bad at modeling each other—but hopefully this will point out the sort of features that might be relevant.)
Some charitable reading is required; the labels are oversimplifications.
I agree that most post-modernists are merely pretending to be at some high level of thinking, and the reason it works for them is that most of their colleagues are in exactly the same situation, so they pass the “peer review”. But we can still use them as a pointer towards the real thing. What would be the useful mental skills that these people are pretending to have?
I remember reading somewhere about a similar model, but for the given question, on each level both “pro” and “con” positions were provided. That made it easier for the reader to focus on the difference between the levels.