I have the impression that (1) when people post things in LW that are politically leftish, it’s quite common for them to get a response along these lines—complaining about leftward bias and suggesting that it should be addressed by a deliberate injection of rightward bias to compensate—whereas (2) when people post things in LW that are politically rightish, they basically never receive such responses.
I have no statistics or anything to back this up, and it’s not clear that there’s any feasible way to get (or informatively fail to get) them, so I’d be interested in other opinions about whether this asymmetry is real.
If it is real, it seems to me quite interesting.
(One possible explanation, if it’s real, would be that leftish views are much more common here than rightish ones, so that people with rightish views feel ill-treated and want the balance redressed. Except that I think I see distinctly more rightish than leftish political commentary here, and the rightish stuff more often gets large numbers of upvotes. I suppose it’s possible that what we have here is a lot of slightly leftish people and a smaller number of rightish ones who feel more strongly. Again, this is probably hard to get a good handle on and I’d be interested in others’ impressions.)
Well right wing people are almost certainly a minority here, but don’t forget that makes such positions convenient for hipster fun. Some LWers who argue for right wing positions have stated that they feel more and more unwelcome in the past few months. Not only that I think they make a good case for pro left bias being very prevasive on LessWrong. I think what you are seeing is some users trying to correct for it.
I dislike the fact that we’re talking about the bias rather than the arguments. Here, more so than any other place I know of, we should be dissecting arguments and talking about the truths of the issues, rather than saying that a statement is incorrect because of its side on the political spectrum.
This site is about refining the art of human rationality, while we certainly do try to get a good map of the world we spend most of our time thinking about thinking. The fundamental realization at the heart of our community, that to a certain extent distinguishes it from traditional rationality, is that humans are biased and broken thinkers who can’t rely on their naive reasoning too much. You can think as long and as calmly as you like but if you base your thinking on broken axioms or bad epistemology you won’t get much closer to truth.
I did not say or even wish to imply a set of arguments was wrong because of political affiliation, neither where the users I linked to. What I was implying quite strongly is that we are unlikely to hear the best arguments or to update appropriately to those that are politically inconvenient. Not even because of a desire to engage in propaganda for ones cause, but because the world simply looks a certain way to them! There are many correct arguments one can make for incorrect positions, by selectively only hearing correct arguments one does not by default hear the counter-arguments or correct arguments for other positions and perhaps doesn’t’ even realize they may exist. These are not a controversial observations at all.
Following this reasoning and promoted by complaints and observations observations of my own I stated my argument by pointing out the dominant political affiliation and ideological assumptions on the site and how this harms the rationality of the community on certain subjects.
The most popular political view, at least according to the much-maligned categories on the survey, was liberalism, with 376 adherents and 34.5% of the vote. Libertarianism followed at 352 (32.3%), then socialism at 290 (26.6%), conservativism at 30 (2.8%) and communism at 5 (.5%).
I have the impression that (1) when people post things in LW that are politically leftish, it’s quite common for them to get a response along these lines—complaining about leftward bias and suggesting that it should be addressed by a deliberate injection of rightward bias to compensate—whereas (2) when people post things in LW that are politically rightish, they basically never receive such responses.
My explanation of this perception is that posters, in general, know better than to post rightish things at LW unless they are correct. Every now and then you get a new Objectivist who gets downvoted because they aren’t discussing things at a high enough level.
Lots of beliefs that are common on LW are uncomfortable for the stereotypical leftist- like human biodiversity in general. To see someone brazenly state that, yes, there is a difference in measured IQ between the races and that reflects reality rather than our inability to design tests properly, or that men and women are actually neurologically distinct, will seem like a “not my tribe” signal to the stereotypical leftist- but people here don’t hold that opinion (as far as I can tell) because of racial or sexual enmity, but because they put evidence above wishful thinking and correct beliefs above politeness.
But now imagine that for the stereotypical rightist. How big of a “not my tribe” signal is atheist materialism and evolution?
I am thinking that one possible asymetry between “the left” and “the right” is that the former is a rather homogenous group, while the latter is heterogenous. The left generally means socialist(-ish), and the right generally means non-socialist. The left is a fuzzy blob in the concept-space, the right seems like a label for points outside of this blob.
As an example, both Ayn Rand and Chesterton would be examples of “the right”. What exactly do they have in common? (Religion: the best thing ever, or the worst thing ever? Individual or community? Mystery or reason? The great future or the great past? Selfishness or selflessness? Should women be allowed as leaders? Etc.) The common trait that classifies them both as “the right” is the fact that neither of them is a socialist.
Well, I could also says that neither of them “considers hinduism the best thing ever”… but why should that information be used to classify them? Well, for a hinduist that would be an important information. Then it follows that classifying many diverse views under one label of “the right” makes sense to you mostly if you are a socialist. (Or if being versus not-being a socialist is the dominant question in your political paradigm.) An “Ayn-Rand-type” non-socialist and a “Chesterton-type” non-socialist would otherwise feel uncomfortable under the common umbrella.
I am not saying there are no differences among “the left”, but to me they seem more like a matter of degree. This observation may be culture-dependent. I am from eastern Europe, where “the left” basically either wants “what communists did” or “something similar to what communists did, just less, and if possible without all the violence”. -- I suppose in USA the diversity of “the left” is greater, because there is no such attractor. Actually, the Republican party may serve as a similar (though weaker) attractor for “the right”.
OK, what I tried to say was this: suppose that the leftist opinions are pretty similar, and the rightist opinions are very diverse. Assuming that both sides are about equally mindkilled (believe in about the same proportion of true statements, and the same proportion of false statements), for most statements the left will probably have either true believes or false beliefs as a whole, while the right will internally disagree—therefore even if each specific right political group has the same chance to have true beliefs, there is a very high chance that at least one of the right political groups will have a true belief.
For clarity, here is a model: There are true beliefs A, B, C, D; and every political group is correct only about one of them, and incorrect about three of them. There are three left groups, but all of them believe in A. There are three right groups, first of them believes in B, second in C, third in D. -- Now if we make a per-group statistics, we find that each party is 25% correct and 75% incorrect. However, if we make a per-true-belief statistics, we find that 25% of true beliefs are associated with the left (A), and 75% of true beliefs are associated with the right (B, C, D). -- In this model, if a group of people could succeed to hold all true beliefs (A, B, C, D), an external observer would judge they are mostly right (despite they happen to disagree with every individual right group in majority of beliefs).
Back to the beginning—we disagree with Ayn Rand about simplicity of values, or about importance of community; we also disagree with Chesterton about religion. That alone does not give us a political label. On the other hand, disagreeing with a socialist political idea is sufficient to get the label of political right, because any point outside of the socialist concept-space is called “the right”.
I am thinking that one possible asymetry between “the left” and “the right” is that the former is a rather homogenous group, while the latter is heterogenous. [...] The left is a fuzzy blob in the concept-space, the right seems like a label for points outside of this blob.
Beware the out-group homogeneity effect. People tend to see their own group as more heterogeneous than other groups, as differences that look small from far away look bigger up close.
With left and right, I have also heard the exact opposite claim: that the “right” represents a narrower, more coherent group. In the US, the “right” is based in the dominant, mainstream social group (sometimes called “real America”), drawing disproportionately from people who are white, male, Christian, relatively well-off, straight, etc., while the “left” is a coalition of the various groups that are left out of “real America” for one reason or another. Alternatively, conservatives are the people who support the existing social order and want to keep things roughly how they are; liberals are the ones who want change—and there are more degrees of freedom in changing things than in keeping things the same.
If a political group X, identified as A in {”left”, “right”}, becomes very powerful in some era, the following things happen:
people see X as a prototype of A;
other A groups are seen like less successful variations of X; if that is impossible, the cognitive dissonance will be solved by reclassifying the incompatible group as non-A;
after a while X (and therefore A) becomes the default position for people who don’t think too much about politics.
Later, when the political group X loses some power:
simple people still identify as X (A), which is reinforced by seeing the past with rose-colored glasses;
new opinions are automatically classified as non-A, because they don’t pattern-match X;
therefore smart people begin to identify as non-A, to signal intellectual superiority and independent thinking.
In USA, X = Republican / religious right, and A = “right”. In Eastern Europe, X = Communist, and A = “left”.
This is very simplified, but it explains why sometimes the same person could self-identify as “left wing” in USA (to express their incompatibility with the religious right), and as “right wing” in Eastern Europe (to express their incompatibility with the communists). On the other hand, people mostly compatible with the religious right or with the communists can self-identify the same in both places.
In Eastern Europe the distinction between “support the traditional model” and “support change” is rather confused, because it is not clear whether the traditional refers to the era before the fall of communism, or to era even before the communists. In some sense, both religious right and communists are literally the conservative parties here.
This is an interesting point, that one about the left being more homogeneous than the right. I am not sure whether to believe it, so let me present some objections that I can think of, without evaluating their merit.
A) Assuming the left is indeed more homogeneous, isn’t it true just because of greater variability of right between different countries, with a typical single country’s right being as homogeneous as the same country’s left? (The objection hasn’t a particularly strong bearing on the perceived LW left/right imbalance, but may be relevant to the more general question of how the categories of left and right are defined.)
The left generally means socialist(-ish), and the right generally means non-socialist.
B) This may not be accurate; beware availability heuristics.
Environmentalists aren’t necessarily socialists as their opinions about the optimal economic order aren’t the defining part of their ideology and may differ. Yet the environmentalists are usually classified on the left. Anarchists aren’t necessarily socialists; many of them oppose any form of organised society, while archetypal socialism is a very organised society, from many points of view more than market capitalism. Feminists rarely dream about socialist utopias as they have a different fish to fry. Yet both feminists and anarchists are usually considered standing on the left. In fact I could use the examples of these groups to make a mirror argument of yours, namely, that the right is capitalist(-ish) while the left is everything opposed to capitalism. I don’t think this is a good definition since there are counter-examples to it too (e.g. the nazis who are against capitalism but still “right-wing”) but at least I don’t immediately see this description being less reasonable than yours.
Of course this all hinges on the definitions of socialism or capitalism, discussions about which might better be avoided for their pointlessness. It is not clear whether there is a sensible definition of left and right other than “arbitrary convention set up by historical accident”, but if there is, I suppose it would go along the lines of social status: the right are those who side with the elites and wish the present distribution of power preserved, the left are those who side with the underclasses and therefore wish to shift the balance towards more egalitarianism, from which would the lower status people profit (in terms of relative status increase, not necessarily materially). This definition has several advantages: for one thing, it has no problems with the fact that in the late 18th century the market liberals were considered left.
As an example, both Ayn Rand and Chesterton would be examples of “the right”. What exactly do they have in common?
C) Both Jacques Derrida and Lenin would be examples of “the left”. What do they have in common? Or Pol Pot and Bertrand Russell? Neither of them was a big fan of free markets (or hinduism, for that matter), but that doesn’t guarantee much ideological homogeneity.
I am from eastern Europe, where “the left” basically either wants “what communists did” or “something similar to what communists did, just less, and if possible without all the violence”.
D) When I still thought that “left” and “right” were more than two rather arbitrary labels, I considered myself a leftist and “something similar to what communists did, just less, and if possible without all the violence” wasn’t the way I would summarise my political preferences. Of course, there is a sense in which any government intervention into the markets is “what communists did, just less”, but it is a sense on such a level of vagueness and generality that it lacks significant information value. In any case, for ideologically oriented both social democrats and greens communism is primarily a negative example rather than an attractor. (I don’t claim deep knowledge of the contemporary left in Slovakia, but feel quite certain to object to your statement being formulated as valid for the whole Eastern Europe).
It is not clear whether there is a sensible definition of left and right other than “arbitrary convention set up by historical accident”, but if there is, I suppose it would go along the lines of social status: the right are those who side with the elites and wish the present distribution of power preserved, the left are those who side with the underclasses and therefore wish to shift the balance towards more egalitarianism, from which would the lower status people profit (in terms of relative status increase, not necessarily materially).
I don’t think that quite described the US, or Western Europe—the stereotypical redneck is low-status but on the right (same for ploucs here in France), and buying organic food seems to be more common with the rich, but is associated to the left.
A better description of the left/right gap may be that each represents a status ladder, and that people support the status ladder on which they have the best relative position. The details of what counts tend to vary with time and place, but on the left you tend to get status for being educated, open-minded, environmentally aware, original, etc., and on the right you tend to get status for being rich, responsible, having a family, being loyal to your country, etc.
At least, that angle of approach seems better than looking at policies; if you compare the policies of the French left and the American left, the policies might seem so different that they don’t deserve the same label; but if you compare the kind of people who support either parties, the similarities are much more apparent.
I have a notion that in the US, left-wingers tend to focus on defection by high-status people and right-wingers tend to focus on defection by low-status people.
It is not clear whether there is a sensible definition of left and right other than “arbitrary convention set up by historical accident”, but if there is, I suppose it would go along the lines of social status: the right are those who side with the elites and wish the present distribution of power preserved, the left are those who side with the underclasses and therefore wish to shift the balance towards more egalitarianism, from which would the lower status people profit (in terms of relative status increase, not necessarily materially).
Except where “the left” has become the elites, there the dynamic is reversed.
The key question is not whether leftist politicians have become elites (they do regularly) but whether their agenda supports elites and whether they get support from the elites, which happens very rarely. There is a lot of self-serving political decisions made by both left and right politicians from which politicians benefit, but the left politicians are nevertheless still more connected with lower classes than the right politicians.
Somewhat special example were/are communist countries where the non-political aspects of social status are reduced and the groups of communists and elites have large overlap. These countries, when compared internationally, are “left”, but in the internal politics there is usually little place for using “left” and “right” as the left and right are relative characteristics which are useless when there is only one political party.
The key question is not whether leftist politicians have become elites (they do regularly) but whether their agenda supports elites and whether they get support from the elites, which happens very rarely.
I wasn’t just referring to politicians, but to the liberal intelligentsia.
but the left politicians are nevertheless still more connected with lower classes than the right politicians.
I don’t know what the situation is in the Czech Republic, but in the US while this was probably somewhat true a generation ago, it’s highly dubious today. (Although of course liberals like to think it’s still true.)
I don’t know what the situation is in the Czech Republic, but in the US while this was probably somewhat true a generation ago, it’s highly dubious today.
I’m reminded of a quote from a hippy band during the Vietnam War. Paraphrased:
We thought we were representing the working class. Then we realized the working class were the ones beating us with nightsticks.
I don’t know what the situation is in the Czech Republic, but in the US while this was probably somewhat true a generation ago, it’s highly dubious today. (Although of course liberals like to think it’s still true.)
Especially when you consider things like gay marriage or free immigration, causes universally approved of (in public, at least) by the liberal intelligentsia, but very unpopular among several core Democratic groups.
But there are any number of sub-varieties of socialism, so it is itself a fuzzy blob. Moreover, the non-right in many
countries, particularly the US, barely has a whiff of classical socialism, Who is advocating a centrally planned economy
or worker control of production in the US? It’s a standing joke in Europe that the US has two parties of the right. That’s “perception” of course. It’s also a US perception that public healthcare “is” socialism—the idea is seen as mainstream
and cross-party elsewhere. What is going on is that the right have this convenient label “socialist” to lambast
the non-right with, and the non-right don’t have a corresponding term to hit back with. That doesnt mean anything about ideaspace.
Which question? Wanting some but not all things under state/provision control is not socialsim by any strict definition. More like moderate or centrel-left or social democracy or something. But “social democrat!” doens’t have the right insulting ring.
About as big as “human biodiversity” is for a leftist. I think you are severely underestimating the strength of conviction among people whose beliefs disagree with your own, or the extent to which these are moral disagreements, rather than exclusively factual.
I think you are severely underestimating the strength of conviction among people whose beliefs disagree with your own,
Very possibly. The Christian who gets infected by LW might be terrified of telling their family, friends, and church group that they’re now an atheist; similarly, the anti-racist who gets infected by LW might be terrified of telling their family and friends that they’re now a race realist.
similarly, the anti-racist who gets infected by LW might be terrified of telling their family and friends that they’re now a race realist.
I recognize that if evidence shows differences in (for example) intelligence between races, then, yeah, I’ve got to change my belief and except that people of X race are smarter than those from Y. I don’t know that this would change my behaviour towards people of either race, or that I think any state policy should change. Perhaps my “racism bad” reflex is stronger than I’m consciously accounting for, but I don’t see any useful way to act on this data. Similarly, I don’t think my behaviour would change much if there was hard data about intelligence difference between the genders.
I choose intelligence because it’s a controversial, and common, topic. I can maybe see the value in applying this data to predisposition to violence, or things like calculating insurance premiums.
There’s a lot of ways to act on data about group differences in intelligence.
For example, if it turns out that group A has a higher average IQ than group B, and that A and B can be distinguished reliably by genetic testing (including but not limited to visual inspection for associated phenotypes), I might decide to devote more effort to educating group B than group A, to make up for the difference. Or I might decide to devote more effort to educating group A than group B, to get the best bang for my education buck. Or I might decide to research the differences, to learn more about the physiological mechanisms of intelligence. Or I might change my ways of evaluating claims so that I give more weight to group A’s ideas relative to group B’s than I used to (assuming I used to believe they were equally intelligent). Or I might decide to structure my society in such a way that group A has access to certain privileges that group B is denied, on the grounds of their superiority, or such that B gets privileges A is denied, on the grounds of their greater need. Etc.
Which of those I do, if any, depends a lot on what I think follows from greater potential intelligence within a group. People disagree about this. People often change their minds about this depending on whether they consider themselves in group A or B.
Incidentally, just for the record: I find it pretty likely that there do exist such group differences, though I expect that the portion of variation in real-world expressed intelligence accounted for by group differences in innate intelligence is <10%. I find it fairly unlikely that “race” is the best detectable correlate of membership in such groups available to us, though it might be more reliable than, say, the shape of an individual’s head (also a popular theory once). I expect its popularity in that role is more of a reflection of historical social relations than a conclusion drawn from current data.
For example, if it turns out that group A has a higher average IQ than group B, and that A and B can be distinguished reliably by genetic testing (including but not limited to visual inspection for associated phenotypes), I might decide to devote more effort to educating group B than group A, to make up for the difference. Or I might decide to devote more effort to educating group A than group B, to get the best bang for my education buck.
Fair enough, that’s an example of policy, based on this data.
Or I might decide to research the differences, to learn more about the physiological mechanisms of intelligence.
Also cool, seems obvious in hindsight!
Or I might change my ways of evaluating claims so that I give more weight to group A’s ideas relative to group B’s than I used to (assuming I used to believe they were equally intelligent).
I’d imagine a group’s ideas are more to do with non-genetic factors than genetic intelligence.
Or I might decide to structure my society in such a way that group A has access to certain privileges that group B is denied, on the grounds of their superiority, or such that B gets privileges A is denied, on the grounds of their greater need. Etc.
For me some of these would be contingent on the additional discovery that the group’s intelligence is a result of its genetic difference; group B could be generally poorer, or less well-nourished, or some other factor leading to lower intelligence, in addition to being genetically distinguishable. This is also making the assumption that IQ tests are culturally fair and the like—though I’m happy to use the term as a placeholder for ‘idealized intelligence test’.
I’d imagine a group’s ideas are more to do with non-genetic factors than genetic intelligence.
As would I. But the claimant’s intelligence (whether genetic or otherwise) is nevertheless a factor I take into account when deciding how much weight to give a claim.
And, yes, all of this is contingent on the idea that IQ correlates well with intelligence.
And, yes, if it turns out that the physiological mechanisms whereby group A develops greater intelligence than group B are heavily environmentally mediated (e.g., due to differential poverty, nourishment, or other factors) I might well decide to alter the environment to increase intelligence in group B as well.
I’ve posted such complaints about left wing bias, so I’ll elaborate on my impressions.
I perceive the left wing comments come with much more of an implicit assumption by the poster, and the respondents to it, of the moral superiority of left wing positions, and that all attending will see it the same way.
Most of the non left wing views don’t seem to me to come with that presumption on the part of the speaker that everyone here shares their moral evaluation. If anything, the tone is of someone who expects to be taken as a crank.
The liberals are more generally accustomed to being in an ideologically homogeneous environment while the libertarians are accustomed to being in the minority, and both speak with a tone appropriate to the general environment, and not to the particular environment here, where liberals and libertarians are equally represented.
For my part, I also find instances where the absent conservatives are caricatured and snickered at, again with the presumption that all right thinking folk agree, and the bile rises in the gorge, and I feel the need to respond.
I perceive the left wing comments come with much more of an implicit assumption by the poster, and the respondents to it, of the moral superiority of left wing positions, and that all attending will see it the same way.
Isn’t that reasonable though? If you’re a X-winger, isn’t the whole point that X-wing positions are in fact morally superior?
Isn’t that reasonable though? If you’re a X-winger, isn’t the whole point that X-wing positions are in fact morally superior?
Morally superior perhaps, but they lack the hull plating and durability to survive ongoing combat and the offensive payload pales in comparison to what the Y-wing can deliver.
The Y-wing was an outdated piece of junk even by the Battle of Yvain; that’s why the Rebels had it at all. The X-wing’s proton torpedoes deliver the hurt when necessary (just ask Tarkin or Ysanne Isard), and if you want more than that, well, that’s what the B-wings are for… Between them and the A-wing, there is simply no role for Y-wings at any point—except cannon bait!
Interesting; thanks. For what it’s worth, I don’t have at all the same perception that leftish comments come with an implicit assumption of the moral superiority of left-wing positions. But I happen to lean distinctly left myself, especially by US standards, and if you don’t then it’s hardly surprising that our perceptions would have such a difference.
I have the impression that (1) when people post things in LW that are politically leftish, it’s quite common for them to get a response along these lines—complaining about leftward bias and suggesting that it should be addressed by a deliberate injection of rightward bias to compensate—whereas (2) when people post things in LW that are politically rightish, they basically never receive such responses.
I have no statistics or anything to back this up, and it’s not clear that there’s any feasible way to get (or informatively fail to get) them, so I’d be interested in other opinions about whether this asymmetry is real.
If it is real, it seems to me quite interesting.
(One possible explanation, if it’s real, would be that leftish views are much more common here than rightish ones, so that people with rightish views feel ill-treated and want the balance redressed. Except that I think I see distinctly more rightish than leftish political commentary here, and the rightish stuff more often gets large numbers of upvotes. I suppose it’s possible that what we have here is a lot of slightly leftish people and a smaller number of rightish ones who feel more strongly. Again, this is probably hard to get a good handle on and I’d be interested in others’ impressions.)
Well right wing people are almost certainly a minority here, but don’t forget that makes such positions convenient for hipster fun. Some LWers who argue for right wing positions have stated that they feel more and more unwelcome in the past few months. Not only that I think they make a good case for pro left bias being very prevasive on LessWrong. I think what you are seeing is some users trying to correct for it.
I find the fact that both people who see themselves as left leaning and those who see themselves as right leaning suddenly feel there is favouritism for those who disagree with them is a much more worrying sign. I think this is what being on one side of a tribal conflict looks like from the inside.
I dislike the fact that we’re talking about the bias rather than the arguments. Here, more so than any other place I know of, we should be dissecting arguments and talking about the truths of the issues, rather than saying that a statement is incorrect because of its side on the political spectrum.
I can’t be the only person thinking this, right?
This site is about refining the art of human rationality, while we certainly do try to get a good map of the world we spend most of our time thinking about thinking. The fundamental realization at the heart of our community, that to a certain extent distinguishes it from traditional rationality, is that humans are biased and broken thinkers who can’t rely on their naive reasoning too much. You can think as long and as calmly as you like but if you base your thinking on broken axioms or bad epistemology you won’t get much closer to truth.
I did not say or even wish to imply a set of arguments was wrong because of political affiliation, neither where the users I linked to. What I was implying quite strongly is that we are unlikely to hear the best arguments or to update appropriately to those that are politically inconvenient. Not even because of a desire to engage in propaganda for ones cause, but because the world simply looks a certain way to them! There are many correct arguments one can make for incorrect positions, by selectively only hearing correct arguments one does not by default hear the counter-arguments or correct arguments for other positions and perhaps doesn’t’ even realize they may exist. These are not a controversial observations at all.
Following this reasoning and promoted by complaints and observations observations of my own I stated my argument by pointing out the dominant political affiliation and ideological assumptions on the site and how this harms the rationality of the community on certain subjects.
This rationality quote by Jonathan Haidt may explain this better than I have. Also here is me making an argument explicitly along those lines.
-- Yvain’s 2011 survey
Aha, thanks.
My explanation of this perception is that posters, in general, know better than to post rightish things at LW unless they are correct. Every now and then you get a new Objectivist who gets downvoted because they aren’t discussing things at a high enough level.
Lots of beliefs that are common on LW are uncomfortable for the stereotypical leftist- like human biodiversity in general. To see someone brazenly state that, yes, there is a difference in measured IQ between the races and that reflects reality rather than our inability to design tests properly, or that men and women are actually neurologically distinct, will seem like a “not my tribe” signal to the stereotypical leftist- but people here don’t hold that opinion (as far as I can tell) because of racial or sexual enmity, but because they put evidence above wishful thinking and correct beliefs above politeness.
But now imagine that for the stereotypical rightist. How big of a “not my tribe” signal is atheist materialism and evolution?
I am thinking that one possible asymetry between “the left” and “the right” is that the former is a rather homogenous group, while the latter is heterogenous. The left generally means socialist(-ish), and the right generally means non-socialist. The left is a fuzzy blob in the concept-space, the right seems like a label for points outside of this blob.
As an example, both Ayn Rand and Chesterton would be examples of “the right”. What exactly do they have in common? (Religion: the best thing ever, or the worst thing ever? Individual or community? Mystery or reason? The great future or the great past? Selfishness or selflessness? Should women be allowed as leaders? Etc.) The common trait that classifies them both as “the right” is the fact that neither of them is a socialist.
Well, I could also says that neither of them “considers hinduism the best thing ever”… but why should that information be used to classify them? Well, for a hinduist that would be an important information. Then it follows that classifying many diverse views under one label of “the right” makes sense to you mostly if you are a socialist. (Or if being versus not-being a socialist is the dominant question in your political paradigm.) An “Ayn-Rand-type” non-socialist and a “Chesterton-type” non-socialist would otherwise feel uncomfortable under the common umbrella.
I am not saying there are no differences among “the left”, but to me they seem more like a matter of degree. This observation may be culture-dependent. I am from eastern Europe, where “the left” basically either wants “what communists did” or “something similar to what communists did, just less, and if possible without all the violence”. -- I suppose in USA the diversity of “the left” is greater, because there is no such attractor. Actually, the Republican party may serve as a similar (though weaker) attractor for “the right”.
OK, what I tried to say was this: suppose that the leftist opinions are pretty similar, and the rightist opinions are very diverse. Assuming that both sides are about equally mindkilled (believe in about the same proportion of true statements, and the same proportion of false statements), for most statements the left will probably have either true believes or false beliefs as a whole, while the right will internally disagree—therefore even if each specific right political group has the same chance to have true beliefs, there is a very high chance that at least one of the right political groups will have a true belief.
For clarity, here is a model: There are true beliefs A, B, C, D; and every political group is correct only about one of them, and incorrect about three of them. There are three left groups, but all of them believe in A. There are three right groups, first of them believes in B, second in C, third in D. -- Now if we make a per-group statistics, we find that each party is 25% correct and 75% incorrect. However, if we make a per-true-belief statistics, we find that 25% of true beliefs are associated with the left (A), and 75% of true beliefs are associated with the right (B, C, D). -- In this model, if a group of people could succeed to hold all true beliefs (A, B, C, D), an external observer would judge they are mostly right (despite they happen to disagree with every individual right group in majority of beliefs).
Back to the beginning—we disagree with Ayn Rand about simplicity of values, or about importance of community; we also disagree with Chesterton about religion. That alone does not give us a political label. On the other hand, disagreeing with a socialist political idea is sufficient to get the label of political right, because any point outside of the socialist concept-space is called “the right”.
Beware the out-group homogeneity effect. People tend to see their own group as more heterogeneous than other groups, as differences that look small from far away look bigger up close.
With left and right, I have also heard the exact opposite claim: that the “right” represents a narrower, more coherent group. In the US, the “right” is based in the dominant, mainstream social group (sometimes called “real America”), drawing disproportionately from people who are white, male, Christian, relatively well-off, straight, etc., while the “left” is a coalition of the various groups that are left out of “real America” for one reason or another. Alternatively, conservatives are the people who support the existing social order and want to keep things roughly how they are; liberals are the ones who want change—and there are more degrees of freedom in changing things than in keeping things the same.
Seems to me there could be a common pattern:
If a political group X, identified as A in {”left”, “right”}, becomes very powerful in some era, the following things happen:
people see X as a prototype of A;
other A groups are seen like less successful variations of X; if that is impossible, the cognitive dissonance will be solved by reclassifying the incompatible group as non-A;
after a while X (and therefore A) becomes the default position for people who don’t think too much about politics.
Later, when the political group X loses some power:
simple people still identify as X (A), which is reinforced by seeing the past with rose-colored glasses;
new opinions are automatically classified as non-A, because they don’t pattern-match X;
therefore smart people begin to identify as non-A, to signal intellectual superiority and independent thinking.
In USA, X = Republican / religious right, and A = “right”. In Eastern Europe, X = Communist, and A = “left”.
This is very simplified, but it explains why sometimes the same person could self-identify as “left wing” in USA (to express their incompatibility with the religious right), and as “right wing” in Eastern Europe (to express their incompatibility with the communists). On the other hand, people mostly compatible with the religious right or with the communists can self-identify the same in both places.
In Eastern Europe the distinction between “support the traditional model” and “support change” is rather confused, because it is not clear whether the traditional refers to the era before the fall of communism, or to era even before the communists. In some sense, both religious right and communists are literally the conservative parties here.
This is an interesting point, that one about the left being more homogeneous than the right. I am not sure whether to believe it, so let me present some objections that I can think of, without evaluating their merit.
A) Assuming the left is indeed more homogeneous, isn’t it true just because of greater variability of right between different countries, with a typical single country’s right being as homogeneous as the same country’s left? (The objection hasn’t a particularly strong bearing on the perceived LW left/right imbalance, but may be relevant to the more general question of how the categories of left and right are defined.)
B) This may not be accurate; beware availability heuristics.
Environmentalists aren’t necessarily socialists as their opinions about the optimal economic order aren’t the defining part of their ideology and may differ. Yet the environmentalists are usually classified on the left. Anarchists aren’t necessarily socialists; many of them oppose any form of organised society, while archetypal socialism is a very organised society, from many points of view more than market capitalism. Feminists rarely dream about socialist utopias as they have a different fish to fry. Yet both feminists and anarchists are usually considered standing on the left. In fact I could use the examples of these groups to make a mirror argument of yours, namely, that the right is capitalist(-ish) while the left is everything opposed to capitalism. I don’t think this is a good definition since there are counter-examples to it too (e.g. the nazis who are against capitalism but still “right-wing”) but at least I don’t immediately see this description being less reasonable than yours.
Of course this all hinges on the definitions of socialism or capitalism, discussions about which might better be avoided for their pointlessness. It is not clear whether there is a sensible definition of left and right other than “arbitrary convention set up by historical accident”, but if there is, I suppose it would go along the lines of social status: the right are those who side with the elites and wish the present distribution of power preserved, the left are those who side with the underclasses and therefore wish to shift the balance towards more egalitarianism, from which would the lower status people profit (in terms of relative status increase, not necessarily materially). This definition has several advantages: for one thing, it has no problems with the fact that in the late 18th century the market liberals were considered left.
C) Both Jacques Derrida and Lenin would be examples of “the left”. What do they have in common? Or Pol Pot and Bertrand Russell? Neither of them was a big fan of free markets (or hinduism, for that matter), but that doesn’t guarantee much ideological homogeneity.
D) When I still thought that “left” and “right” were more than two rather arbitrary labels, I considered myself a leftist and “something similar to what communists did, just less, and if possible without all the violence” wasn’t the way I would summarise my political preferences. Of course, there is a sense in which any government intervention into the markets is “what communists did, just less”, but it is a sense on such a level of vagueness and generality that it lacks significant information value. In any case, for ideologically oriented both social democrats and greens communism is primarily a negative example rather than an attractor. (I don’t claim deep knowledge of the contemporary left in Slovakia, but feel quite certain to object to your statement being formulated as valid for the whole Eastern Europe).
I don’t think that quite described the US, or Western Europe—the stereotypical redneck is low-status but on the right (same for ploucs here in France), and buying organic food seems to be more common with the rich, but is associated to the left.
A better description of the left/right gap may be that each represents a status ladder, and that people support the status ladder on which they have the best relative position. The details of what counts tend to vary with time and place, but on the left you tend to get status for being educated, open-minded, environmentally aware, original, etc., and on the right you tend to get status for being rich, responsible, having a family, being loyal to your country, etc.
At least, that angle of approach seems better than looking at policies; if you compare the policies of the French left and the American left, the policies might seem so different that they don’t deserve the same label; but if you compare the kind of people who support either parties, the similarities are much more apparent.
I have a notion that in the US, left-wingers tend to focus on defection by high-status people and right-wingers tend to focus on defection by low-status people.
Except where “the left” has become the elites, there the dynamic is reversed.
The key question is not whether leftist politicians have become elites (they do regularly) but whether their agenda supports elites and whether they get support from the elites, which happens very rarely. There is a lot of self-serving political decisions made by both left and right politicians from which politicians benefit, but the left politicians are nevertheless still more connected with lower classes than the right politicians.
Somewhat special example were/are communist countries where the non-political aspects of social status are reduced and the groups of communists and elites have large overlap. These countries, when compared internationally, are “left”, but in the internal politics there is usually little place for using “left” and “right” as the left and right are relative characteristics which are useless when there is only one political party.
I wasn’t just referring to politicians, but to the liberal intelligentsia.
I don’t know what the situation is in the Czech Republic, but in the US while this was probably somewhat true a generation ago, it’s highly dubious today. (Although of course liberals like to think it’s still true.)
I’m reminded of a quote from a hippy band during the Vietnam War. Paraphrased:
Especially when you consider things like gay marriage or free immigration, causes universally approved of (in public, at least) by the liberal intelligentsia, but very unpopular among several core Democratic groups.
But there are any number of sub-varieties of socialism, so it is itself a fuzzy blob. Moreover, the non-right in many countries, particularly the US, barely has a whiff of classical socialism, Who is advocating a centrally planned economy or worker control of production in the US? It’s a standing joke in Europe that the US has two parties of the right. That’s “perception” of course. It’s also a US perception that public healthcare “is” socialism—the idea is seen as mainstream and cross-party elsewhere. What is going on is that the right have this convenient label “socialist” to lambast the non-right with, and the non-right don’t have a corresponding term to hit back with. That doesnt mean anything about ideaspace.
Well, that depends on the industry. For example, as you mentioned below, the left here is advocating central planning in the medical industry.
Of course I meant central planning of (pretty much) everything. Every polity has some central planning of some things.
The question is how much of the economy is under central planning and which factions are trying to increase or decrease it.
Which question? Wanting some but not all things under state/provision control is not socialsim by any strict definition. More like moderate or centrel-left or social democracy or something. But “social democrat!” doens’t have the right insulting ring.
About as big as “human biodiversity” is for a leftist. I think you are severely underestimating the strength of conviction among people whose beliefs disagree with your own, or the extent to which these are moral disagreements, rather than exclusively factual.
Very possibly. The Christian who gets infected by LW might be terrified of telling their family, friends, and church group that they’re now an atheist; similarly, the anti-racist who gets infected by LW might be terrified of telling their family and friends that they’re now a race realist.
I recognize that if evidence shows differences in (for example) intelligence between races, then, yeah, I’ve got to change my belief and except that people of X race are smarter than those from Y. I don’t know that this would change my behaviour towards people of either race, or that I think any state policy should change. Perhaps my “racism bad” reflex is stronger than I’m consciously accounting for, but I don’t see any useful way to act on this data. Similarly, I don’t think my behaviour would change much if there was hard data about intelligence difference between the genders.
I choose intelligence because it’s a controversial, and common, topic. I can maybe see the value in applying this data to predisposition to violence, or things like calculating insurance premiums.
There’s a lot of ways to act on data about group differences in intelligence.
For example, if it turns out that group A has a higher average IQ than group B, and that A and B can be distinguished reliably by genetic testing (including but not limited to visual inspection for associated phenotypes), I might decide to devote more effort to educating group B than group A, to make up for the difference. Or I might decide to devote more effort to educating group A than group B, to get the best bang for my education buck. Or I might decide to research the differences, to learn more about the physiological mechanisms of intelligence. Or I might change my ways of evaluating claims so that I give more weight to group A’s ideas relative to group B’s than I used to (assuming I used to believe they were equally intelligent). Or I might decide to structure my society in such a way that group A has access to certain privileges that group B is denied, on the grounds of their superiority, or such that B gets privileges A is denied, on the grounds of their greater need. Etc.
Which of those I do, if any, depends a lot on what I think follows from greater potential intelligence within a group. People disagree about this. People often change their minds about this depending on whether they consider themselves in group A or B.
Incidentally, just for the record: I find it pretty likely that there do exist such group differences, though I expect that the portion of variation in real-world expressed intelligence accounted for by group differences in innate intelligence is <10%. I find it fairly unlikely that “race” is the best detectable correlate of membership in such groups available to us, though it might be more reliable than, say, the shape of an individual’s head (also a popular theory once). I expect its popularity in that role is more of a reflection of historical social relations than a conclusion drawn from current data.
Thanks for the reply!
Fair enough, that’s an example of policy, based on this data.
Also cool, seems obvious in hindsight!
I’d imagine a group’s ideas are more to do with non-genetic factors than genetic intelligence.
For me some of these would be contingent on the additional discovery that the group’s intelligence is a result of its genetic difference; group B could be generally poorer, or less well-nourished, or some other factor leading to lower intelligence, in addition to being genetically distinguishable. This is also making the assumption that IQ tests are culturally fair and the like—though I’m happy to use the term as a placeholder for ‘idealized intelligence test’.
As would I. But the claimant’s intelligence (whether genetic or otherwise) is nevertheless a factor I take into account when deciding how much weight to give a claim.
And, yes, all of this is contingent on the idea that IQ correlates well with intelligence.
And, yes, if it turns out that the physiological mechanisms whereby group A develops greater intelligence than group B are heavily environmentally mediated (e.g., due to differential poverty, nourishment, or other factors) I might well decide to alter the environment to increase intelligence in group B as well.
I’ve posted such complaints about left wing bias, so I’ll elaborate on my impressions.
I perceive the left wing comments come with much more of an implicit assumption by the poster, and the respondents to it, of the moral superiority of left wing positions, and that all attending will see it the same way.
Most of the non left wing views don’t seem to me to come with that presumption on the part of the speaker that everyone here shares their moral evaluation. If anything, the tone is of someone who expects to be taken as a crank.
The liberals are more generally accustomed to being in an ideologically homogeneous environment while the libertarians are accustomed to being in the minority, and both speak with a tone appropriate to the general environment, and not to the particular environment here, where liberals and libertarians are equally represented.
For my part, I also find instances where the absent conservatives are caricatured and snickered at, again with the presumption that all right thinking folk agree, and the bile rises in the gorge, and I feel the need to respond.
Isn’t that reasonable though? If you’re a X-winger, isn’t the whole point that X-wing positions are in fact morally superior?
Morally superior perhaps, but they lack the hull plating and durability to survive ongoing combat and the offensive payload pales in comparison to what the Y-wing can deliver.
The Y-wing was an outdated piece of junk even by the Battle of Yvain; that’s why the Rebels had it at all. The X-wing’s proton torpedoes deliver the hurt when necessary (just ask Tarkin or Ysanne Isard), and if you want more than that, well, that’s what the B-wings are for… Between them and the A-wing, there is simply no role for Y-wings at any point—except cannon bait!
Shouldn’t that be spelled “canon bait”? Heh.
Well, by bringing in Isard, I make it both.
Ha!
Assuming that everyone would see it the same way when manifestly they do not is just an empirical mistake.
Yes, everyone think’s their position is right, but not everyone speaks to audiences who disagree with them expecting them all to agree.
Interesting; thanks. For what it’s worth, I don’t have at all the same perception that leftish comments come with an implicit assumption of the moral superiority of left-wing positions. But I happen to lean distinctly left myself, especially by US standards, and if you don’t then it’s hardly surprising that our perceptions would have such a difference.
How about the other side of that—my characterization of the tone of non left wing views?
Not far off, I think.