Okay, more thoughts. I haven’t read your response to the other comment because I haven’t finished reacting to this one yet. (And, for the record, I feel like this has already helped me more than most of the in-person therapy I’ve ever had. It’s easier for me to write these kinds of things online than it is for me to tell them to a therapist I’ve been dragged to.)
I don’t know if the focus on my parents specifically is quite right. What about peers (past, present, or imagined)?
Specifically, the assumption that your parents need to be proud of something… when, in fact, normal healthy parents are proud of their kids when they make mudpies or say “gaga” or something.
Anyway, now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure my mom is proud of me in the way you describe. My father, I’m not so sure. I don’t think he’s good at understanding other people’s emotions, and he has a tendency to be very critical. I’m a little afraid of him, too.
If you repeat the question—and this time, actually allow yourself to experience what it would be like if your parents had always been proud of you… then a portion of your current worldview will die, but YOU will become more free.
I’m getting a little better at imagining it, and I can believe it of my mom, but I don’t know if it’s actually true of my father. And I think it would be good to want to believe the truth, whatever it is. Litany of Tarski, Litany of Gendlin, and all that. Right now, I do want my father’s approval, very much so—but I think it might be possible for me to throw that out the window, by adopting the attitude that if he doesn’t think that, say, beating Battletoads is a worthy accomplishment, that’s his problem, not mine. The guy can’t even sing! (Should I try this?)
I think I need to get out and see more people, some of them on a regular basis. Sitting in the house alone or with my parents isn’t helping. According to legend, “There is life outside your apartment”, but I’m not sure where to find it. I’ll sign up for that Lesswrong NYC Meetup group, and maybe I’ll try to get some phone numbers from people at the local bookstore—and this time, actually call them. Anyone have any suggestions that don’t involve getting a job, taking a class, or spending a lot of money?
All right, now I’ll go read the reply to my earlier half-comment.
They can also be imprimers, but your parents tend to get first crack at you and lay down a lot of stuff before you even have any conscious/verbal comprehension of what’s going on. Fixing a block generally has to happen at the earliest point where a rule was created, not where it was later simply reinforced. Otherwise, they have a tendency to come back, which is really annoying.
I’m getting a little better at imagining it, and I can believe it of my mom, but I don’t know if it’s actually true of my father. And I think it would be good to want to believe the truth, whatever it is.
If I set the thermostat on my wall to a temperature that it’s not at, does that mean I’m disbelieving the truth of the current temperature?
The objective here is not for you to believe something happened that didn’t happen. Rather, it’s to correct your mistaken judgment that your level of self-pride is to be determined by your quantity of effortful and worthy accomplishments, as judged by others.
Specifically, what happens when you imagine that your parents were always proud of you, is that your brain is forced to realize (emotionally, not just intellectually) that its current set of SASS rules are not The One True Rules For Survival In Your Tribe, but simply one possibility out of many.
That’s what I mean by “a portion of your worldview will die, but YOU will become more free.” The confusion you experienced when you first imagined it, was your brain’s reaction to the battle between your apologist and revolutionary. The rambling that followed was the apologist trying to repair the damage.
Right now, I do want my father’s approval, very much so—but I think it might be possible for me to throw that out the window, by adopting the attitude that if he doesn’t think that, say, beating Battletoads is a worthy accomplishment, that’s his problem, not mine. The guy can’t even sing! (Should I try this?)
No—that entire concept is still stuck in the same worldview you have now, where people’s status is determined by the worth of their accomplishments in the eyes of another. That’s the bit of your worldview that needs to die, not be reinforced!
More specifically, it’s the rule that says your status is lowered by not having such accomplishents. It’s perfectly okay to believe that having more accomplishments raises your status, so long as the lack of accomplishments doesn’t take you below the level of status required for health and happiness.
That’s how people with healthy motivation act—they feel more pride when they accomplish things, but there’s no threat to their pride when they’re not doing anything… and thus no vicious cycle of negative motivation.
I think I need to get out and see more people, some of them on a regular basis. Sitting in the house alone or with my parents isn’t helping. According to legend, “There is life outside your apartment”, but I’m not sure where to find it. I’ll sign up for that Lesswrong NYC Meetup group, and maybe I’ll try to get some phone numbers from people at the local bookstore—and this time, actually call them. Anyone have any suggestions that don’t involve getting a job, taking a class, or spending a lot of money?
I’m about to drop this thread of conversation, because it seems to me that you’re starting to think I’m your therapist or life coach or something. If you want to fix your brain, I’ll help, but I’m not going to keep dragging you back to pay attention to the part of things that actually needs fixing.
The part of my work that I enjoy and would do to some extent without pay is the part where I actually help people… not the part where I have to beat them about the head and shoulders (figuratively speaking) to keep them focused on the bit that will actually help.
But so far, every attempt I’ve made to help someone in a significant way for free, has resulted in the person drifting off as soon as they realize that it’s still going to cost them something (in the personal/emotional sense) to change. (No matter how much they previously protested that they would be different.)
And I could be wrong, but from this comment and the other one, that’s the direction this looks like it might be taking.
No—that entire concept is still stuck in the same worldview you have now, where people’s status is determined by the worth of their accomplishments in the eyes of another. That’s the bit of your worldview that needs to die, not be reinforced!
More specifically, it’s the rule that says your status is lowered by not having such accomplishents. It’s perfectly okay to believe that having more accomplishments raises your status, so long as the lack of accomplishments doesn’t take you below the level of status required for health and happiness.
That’s how people with healthy motivation act—they feel more pride when they accomplish things, but there’s no threat to their pride when they’re not doing anything… and thus no vicious cycle of negative motivation.
Again, thank you for the whack from the Clue Stick. Sometimes you have to hear the same thing in several different ways before you understand it.
Oh, and I really am feeling a lot better now. At least for the moment.
I’m about to drop this thread of conversation, because it seems to me that you’re starting to think I’m your therapist or life coach or something. If you want to fix your brain, I’ll help, but I’m not going to keep dragging you back to pay attention to the part of things that actually needs fixing.
That was the part where I start acting on my positive motivation. ;)
Oh, and I really am feeling a lot better now. At least for the moment.
One thing you should be aware of is that SASS rules are often highly contextual, and removing the action of a rule in one context doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve gotten rid of it in another context, or that you don’t have overlapping and partially-redundant rules.
So, even if you’ve now removed the “unworthy if you don’t accomplish to standards” rule (and I’m not certain you have, without testing), be aware that this doesn’t equal removing all your status-negating rules, let alone your rules for other types of SASS.
By being aware of that, you’ll be less likely to conclude the whole thing is a failure, the next time a SASS-threat feeling occurs.
(This is important, btw—I went through a lot of ups and downs before I realized that the mere existence of another SASS threat after I thought I’d fixed something did NOT equal “I failed as a person and a self-help guru” and therefore justify further lowering my SASS! Recursion and paradox are always a mindhacker’s close companions, though luckily not in an exponential-blowup kind of way. More like a loops-implemented-with-recursion way. But I digress.)
That was the part where I start acting on my positive motivation. ;)
Okay, more thoughts. I haven’t read your response to the other comment because I haven’t finished reacting to this one yet. (And, for the record, I feel like this has already helped me more than most of the in-person therapy I’ve ever had. It’s easier for me to write these kinds of things online than it is for me to tell them to a therapist I’ve been dragged to.)
I don’t know if the focus on my parents specifically is quite right. What about peers (past, present, or imagined)?
Anyway, now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure my mom is proud of me in the way you describe. My father, I’m not so sure. I don’t think he’s good at understanding other people’s emotions, and he has a tendency to be very critical. I’m a little afraid of him, too.
I’m getting a little better at imagining it, and I can believe it of my mom, but I don’t know if it’s actually true of my father. And I think it would be good to want to believe the truth, whatever it is. Litany of Tarski, Litany of Gendlin, and all that. Right now, I do want my father’s approval, very much so—but I think it might be possible for me to throw that out the window, by adopting the attitude that if he doesn’t think that, say, beating Battletoads is a worthy accomplishment, that’s his problem, not mine. The guy can’t even sing! (Should I try this?)
I think I need to get out and see more people, some of them on a regular basis. Sitting in the house alone or with my parents isn’t helping. According to legend, “There is life outside your apartment”, but I’m not sure where to find it. I’ll sign up for that Lesswrong NYC Meetup group, and maybe I’ll try to get some phone numbers from people at the local bookstore—and this time, actually call them. Anyone have any suggestions that don’t involve getting a job, taking a class, or spending a lot of money?
All right, now I’ll go read the reply to my earlier half-comment.
They can also be imprimers, but your parents tend to get first crack at you and lay down a lot of stuff before you even have any conscious/verbal comprehension of what’s going on. Fixing a block generally has to happen at the earliest point where a rule was created, not where it was later simply reinforced. Otherwise, they have a tendency to come back, which is really annoying.
If I set the thermostat on my wall to a temperature that it’s not at, does that mean I’m disbelieving the truth of the current temperature?
The objective here is not for you to believe something happened that didn’t happen. Rather, it’s to correct your mistaken judgment that your level of self-pride is to be determined by your quantity of effortful and worthy accomplishments, as judged by others.
Specifically, what happens when you imagine that your parents were always proud of you, is that your brain is forced to realize (emotionally, not just intellectually) that its current set of SASS rules are not The One True Rules For Survival In Your Tribe, but simply one possibility out of many.
That’s what I mean by “a portion of your worldview will die, but YOU will become more free.” The confusion you experienced when you first imagined it, was your brain’s reaction to the battle between your apologist and revolutionary. The rambling that followed was the apologist trying to repair the damage.
No—that entire concept is still stuck in the same worldview you have now, where people’s status is determined by the worth of their accomplishments in the eyes of another. That’s the bit of your worldview that needs to die, not be reinforced!
More specifically, it’s the rule that says your status is lowered by not having such accomplishents. It’s perfectly okay to believe that having more accomplishments raises your status, so long as the lack of accomplishments doesn’t take you below the level of status required for health and happiness.
That’s how people with healthy motivation act—they feel more pride when they accomplish things, but there’s no threat to their pride when they’re not doing anything… and thus no vicious cycle of negative motivation.
I’m about to drop this thread of conversation, because it seems to me that you’re starting to think I’m your therapist or life coach or something. If you want to fix your brain, I’ll help, but I’m not going to keep dragging you back to pay attention to the part of things that actually needs fixing.
The part of my work that I enjoy and would do to some extent without pay is the part where I actually help people… not the part where I have to beat them about the head and shoulders (figuratively speaking) to keep them focused on the bit that will actually help.
But so far, every attempt I’ve made to help someone in a significant way for free, has resulted in the person drifting off as soon as they realize that it’s still going to cost them something (in the personal/emotional sense) to change. (No matter how much they previously protested that they would be different.)
And I could be wrong, but from this comment and the other one, that’s the direction this looks like it might be taking.
Again, thank you for the whack from the Clue Stick. Sometimes you have to hear the same thing in several different ways before you understand it.
Oh, and I really am feeling a lot better now. At least for the moment.
That was the part where I start acting on my positive motivation. ;)
One thing you should be aware of is that SASS rules are often highly contextual, and removing the action of a rule in one context doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve gotten rid of it in another context, or that you don’t have overlapping and partially-redundant rules.
So, even if you’ve now removed the “unworthy if you don’t accomplish to standards” rule (and I’m not certain you have, without testing), be aware that this doesn’t equal removing all your status-negating rules, let alone your rules for other types of SASS.
By being aware of that, you’ll be less likely to conclude the whole thing is a failure, the next time a SASS-threat feeling occurs.
(This is important, btw—I went through a lot of ups and downs before I realized that the mere existence of another SASS threat after I thought I’d fixed something did NOT equal “I failed as a person and a self-help guru” and therefore justify further lowering my SASS! Recursion and paradox are always a mindhacker’s close companions, though luckily not in an exponential-blowup kind of way. More like a loops-implemented-with-recursion way. But I digress.)
Ah, ok, good then.
Okay.