To suggest that people on the internet may have certain personality types is a good suggestion, but it raises two questions:
Might your example of Reddit be similar to LW because LW gets lots of users from Reddit? (Or put another way, if the average LessWronger is gifted, maybe “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree” and Reddit has lots of gifted people, too.)
Might gifted people gather in large numbers on the internet because it’s easier to find people with similar interests? (Just because people on the internet tend to have those personality types, it doesn’t mean they’re not gifted.)
As for “the internet” having a systematic bias in personalities, I would like to see the evidence of this that’s not based on a biased sample. It’s likely that the places you go to find people like you will, well, have people like you, so even if you (or somebody else on one of those sites) observed a pattern in personality types across sites they hang out on, the sample is likely to be biased.
I’d say “LW has about as many gifted people as Reddit (proportionally)” should be a sort of null hypothesis: if this is true, then people on LessWrong are not actually surprisingly smart.
I wouldn’t say that’s a reasonable null. Reddit has like 8 million users; 2% of the 310m American population is just 6.2m, so it would be difficult for Reddit to be 100% gifted while LW could easily be. The size disparity is so large that such a null seems more than a little weird.
I don’t think I understand your objection. If LW were 100% gifted (while Reddit, presumably, is not?) wouldn’t that be evidence that there’s some sort of IQ selection at work? (or, conceivably, that just being on LW makes people smarter, although I think that’s not supposed to be a thing).
I’m saying that we could, just from knowing how big Reddit is, reject out of hand all sorts of proportions of gifted because it would be nigh impossible; a set of nulls (the proportions 0-100%), many of which (all >75%) we can reject before collecting any data is a pretty strange choice to make!
Well, really what I want to ask is: is LW any different, IQ-wise, from a random selection of Redditors of the same size? Possibly stating it in terms of a proportion of “gifted” people is misleading, but that’s not as interesting anyway.
Well, I don’t see the difference either, but I’m still not entirely sure what about this hypothesis seems unreasonable to you, so I was hoping this reformulation would help.
The reasoning behind it is as follows: I figure a generic discussion board on the Internet has roughly the same IQ distribution as Reddit. If LW has a high average IQ, but so does Reddit, then presumably these are both due to the selection effect of “someone who posts on an online discussion board”. So to see if LW is genuinely smarter, we should be comparing it to Reddit, not to the Normal(100,15) distribution.
Okay, fair enough. I don’t actually have much experience with Reddit.
I still think it’s a reasonable reference class. For one thing, LW runs on Reddit-based code. In particular, I would say that being significantly smarter than Reddit is a good cutoff for the feeling of smugness to start kicking in.
Maybe it just means Reddit-folk are surprisingly smart? I mean, IQ 130 corresponds to 98th percentile. The usual standard for surprise is 95th percentile.
That’s a good point—I hadn’t considered sample bias. Extending that point, though, Lesswrong and Mensa are a biased sample in more than the simple fact that the people are gifted. It is only a subset of gifted people that choose to participate in Mensa It should be mentioned, I’m using “internet” as shorthand for the “deep” internet … not facebook. I’m talking websites that most people do not use, that you’d have to spend a lot of time on the internet to find. As such, the “internet” hypothesis would predict a greater bias towards smaller sub-reddits.
Anyway, I was mostly posing an alternate hypothesis. When I first noticed the trend on the personality forums, this is what I thought was happening -
Slacking off / internet addiction selects for Perceiving and low Conscientiousness.
Non-social-networking internet use selects for Introversion.
Any forum discussing an idea without immediate practical benefits selects for iNtuition.
And then, factor in lesswrong/giftedness...
If it’s a math/science/logic topic, it selects for Thinking and iNtuition.
High scores on Raven’s matrices select for Thinking, iNtuition. High scores on Working memory components select for Judging. The ACT/SAT additionally select for Conscientiousness
Strong mathematical affinity shifts those on the border of NTP and NTJ into *NTJ (people prefer dealing with intellectually ordered systems, even if they have messy rooms and chaotic lifestyles)
A scientific/engineering ideology creates a shift towards the concrete (empirical evidence, practical gains in technology, etc) shifts those on the border of NTJ and STJ into ISTJ.
In summary, I think LW and Mensa surveys are attracting a special subset of idea driven and logical people (iNtuitives and Thinkers) and likely to use the internet often/spot the survey. (Introverts)
I agree with (1), but would claim that it also selectively attracts introverts (and I’m unsure whether or not it will bias J-P to the P side)
(2) For each of these, I tried not to look at the data after finding the poll. I made predictions first. Just for fun / to correct for hindsight bias, anyone reading might want to do the same. To play, don’t click on the link or read my prediction until you make yours. Also, here is some data which claims to represent the general population—http://mbtitruths.blogspot.com/2011/02/real-statistics.html for comparison. I’ve already seen similar data on another site, so I won’t state my predictions on this one.
A website posts stats for people who have taken the test. Unlike the above simple random sample, this selects for internet users.
Prediction: I’d consider this “shallow internet”, so very weak biases to (I). The general population is (S), I’d expect a weak bias to (N) but not enough to overcome the general population’s S centering.
Result: apparently I suck at predictions. In hindsight all the top three would be predicted score high “Fi” on a Jungian cognitive function test, and Fi in theory would be more interested in taking personality tests. But that’s hindsight, and I’m not sure if connection between MBTI and Jung hasn’t been verified empirically.
Here is a “deep internet” forum that I wouldn’t ever visit… Christian singles chat forum! This should not suffer from the sample bias you mentioned earlier (He stated that websites I visit are likely to have users with similar personalities to me [ENTP])
Prediction: I tried my best not to look at the data despite the high visual salience as soon as you open that link. Here is my prediction: I’d predict strong biases towards Introversion (because internet), slight biases towards iNtuition (because religion is idea-based), moderate bias to Feeling (I think religious people are illogical) and … let’s say a slight tilt towards Judging. Call it a hunch, life experience says that Si (judging + sensing) is particularly predisposed to religion.
Result: OK, looks like my trends were right but my magnitude was way off. My “hunch” was correct but I didn’t listen to it closely enough and vastly underestimated the Judging bias, while my personal prejudice overestimated the Feeling bias. My predictions about intution and introversion were essentially correct though.
Prediction- Strong N, slight T bias. I don’t think T actually means “intelligent” as I define it, but I do think it would help on some portions of the IQ test.
Prediction—strong N, moderate T. I’m not sure about J-P. I think people who choose science tracks and go into academia will be P (creative types), whereas kids who get good grades but ultimately do not choose science will be J. I’m not sure which group they are looking at (I didn’t permit myself to read it yet, so I’m a bit vague on what exactly they did). I don’t think E—I will matter at all.
Result -
NT take high level science a lot more, Introverts take them slightly more. J-P is irrelevant.
Intuition really helps in school at all levels.
Feeling relates to high GPA in the easy courses but not the hard course (that’s pretty unexpected)
Introversion relates to high GPA in hard course but not in easy courses.
Percievers start out with a pretty big edge both in IQ and GPA in the lower level courses, Judging takes a slight lead in both those metrics in the advanced course. Not sure if this is noise.
Side finding—they also did IQ measurements. Again, only N related to IQ (in fact, F won out over T)...but it did not relate as much in the advanced courses. I think the advanced course chopped off the lower end of the IQ bell curve, leaving only smart Sensors. By the way, Extroverts have an IQ edge, despite getting lower grades and not taking advanced courses as often.
Thoughts? I think in general my ideas about introversion not mattering for intelligence, but mattering a lot for internet use, bear out. Apparently Thinking doesn’t really matter either...which I sort of felt was true, but I didn’t actually expect the IQ test scores to agree with me on that. It might have to do with self reported vs actual use of logic.
Of course, we are looking at the center of the bell curve, whereas on LW we are (presumably) looking at the far right edge.
They say that they found IQ correlates with I, N, T, and P. However, they claim that were surprised about the “I” correlation, because a large number of other studies have found that E is positively correlated. They go on to talk about how different testing conditions might favor E vs I. Some interesting further reading in there...it seems that N only correlates on the verbal reasoning section,
I don’t have any more data than that, sorry.
To suggest that people on the internet may have certain personality types is a good suggestion, but it raises two questions:
Might your example of Reddit be similar to LW because LW gets lots of users from Reddit? (Or put another way, if the average LessWronger is gifted, maybe “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree” and Reddit has lots of gifted people, too.)
Might gifted people gather in large numbers on the internet because it’s easier to find people with similar interests? (Just because people on the internet tend to have those personality types, it doesn’t mean they’re not gifted.)
As for “the internet” having a systematic bias in personalities, I would like to see the evidence of this that’s not based on a biased sample. It’s likely that the places you go to find people like you will, well, have people like you, so even if you (or somebody else on one of those sites) observed a pattern in personality types across sites they hang out on, the sample is likely to be biased.
I’d say “LW has about as many gifted people as Reddit (proportionally)” should be a sort of null hypothesis: if this is true, then people on LessWrong are not actually surprisingly smart.
I wouldn’t say that’s a reasonable null. Reddit has like 8 million users; 2% of the 310m American population is just 6.2m, so it would be difficult for Reddit to be 100% gifted while LW could easily be. The size disparity is so large that such a null seems more than a little weird.
I don’t think I understand your objection. If LW were 100% gifted (while Reddit, presumably, is not?) wouldn’t that be evidence that there’s some sort of IQ selection at work? (or, conceivably, that just being on LW makes people smarter, although I think that’s not supposed to be a thing).
I’m saying that we could, just from knowing how big Reddit is, reject out of hand all sorts of proportions of gifted because it would be nigh impossible; a set of nulls (the proportions 0-100%), many of which (all >75%) we can reject before collecting any data is a pretty strange choice to make!
Well, really what I want to ask is: is LW any different, IQ-wise, from a random selection of Redditors of the same size? Possibly stating it in terms of a proportion of “gifted” people is misleading, but that’s not as interesting anyway.
I don’t see the difference. A random selection of Redditors is going to depend on what Reddit overall looks like...
Well, I don’t see the difference either, but I’m still not entirely sure what about this hypothesis seems unreasonable to you, so I was hoping this reformulation would help.
The reasoning behind it is as follows: I figure a generic discussion board on the Internet has roughly the same IQ distribution as Reddit. If LW has a high average IQ, but so does Reddit, then presumably these are both due to the selection effect of “someone who posts on an online discussion board”. So to see if LW is genuinely smarter, we should be comparing it to Reddit, not to the Normal(100,15) distribution.
I would be shocked if that were true. Even after having grown stupendously, Reddit is still better than most discussion boards I happen to read.
Okay, fair enough. I don’t actually have much experience with Reddit.
I still think it’s a reasonable reference class. For one thing, LW runs on Reddit-based code. In particular, I would say that being significantly smarter than Reddit is a good cutoff for the feeling of smugness to start kicking in.
Maybe it just means Reddit-folk are surprisingly smart? I mean, IQ 130 corresponds to 98th percentile. The usual standard for surprise is 95th percentile.
That’s a good point—I hadn’t considered sample bias. Extending that point, though, Lesswrong and Mensa are a biased sample in more than the simple fact that the people are gifted. It is only a subset of gifted people that choose to participate in Mensa It should be mentioned, I’m using “internet” as shorthand for the “deep” internet … not facebook. I’m talking websites that most people do not use, that you’d have to spend a lot of time on the internet to find. As such, the “internet” hypothesis would predict a greater bias towards smaller sub-reddits.
Anyway, I was mostly posing an alternate hypothesis. When I first noticed the trend on the personality forums, this is what I thought was happening -
Slacking off / internet addiction selects for Perceiving and low Conscientiousness.
Non-social-networking internet use selects for Introversion.
Any forum discussing an idea without immediate practical benefits selects for iNtuition.
And then, factor in lesswrong/giftedness...
If it’s a math/science/logic topic, it selects for Thinking and iNtuition.
High scores on Raven’s matrices select for Thinking, iNtuition. High scores on Working memory components select for Judging. The ACT/SAT additionally select for Conscientiousness
Strong mathematical affinity shifts those on the border of NTP and NTJ into *NTJ (people prefer dealing with intellectually ordered systems, even if they have messy rooms and chaotic lifestyles)
A scientific/engineering ideology creates a shift towards the concrete (empirical evidence, practical gains in technology, etc) shifts those on the border of NTJ and STJ into ISTJ.
In summary, I think LW and Mensa surveys are attracting a special subset of idea driven and logical people (iNtuitives and Thinkers) and likely to use the internet often/spot the survey. (Introverts)
That’s much nicer and much more detailed. Questions this raises:
Might the “deep” internet you refer to be selecting for gifted people? (I think this is likely!)
Do we have figures on personality types and IQs for internet forums in general, not from a biased sample set? These figures would test your theory.
I agree with (1), but would claim that it also selectively attracts introverts (and I’m unsure whether or not it will bias J-P to the P side)
(2) For each of these, I tried not to look at the data after finding the poll. I made predictions first. Just for fun / to correct for hindsight bias, anyone reading might want to do the same. To play, don’t click on the link or read my prediction until you make yours. Also, here is some data which claims to represent the general population—http://mbtitruths.blogspot.com/2011/02/real-statistics.html for comparison. I’ve already seen similar data on another site, so I won’t state my predictions on this one.
A website posts stats for people who have taken the test. Unlike the above simple random sample, this selects for internet users.
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/demographics.html
Prediction: I’d consider this “shallow internet”, so very weak biases to (I). The general population is (S), I’d expect a weak bias to (N) but not enough to overcome the general population’s S centering.
Result: apparently I suck at predictions. In hindsight all the top three would be predicted score high “Fi” on a Jungian cognitive function test, and Fi in theory would be more interested in taking personality tests. But that’s hindsight, and I’m not sure if connection between MBTI and Jung hasn’t been verified empirically.
Here is a “deep internet” forum that I wouldn’t ever visit… Christian singles chat forum! This should not suffer from the sample bias you mentioned earlier (He stated that websites I visit are likely to have users with similar personalities to me [ENTP])
http://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/34516-meyers-briggs-type-indicator-mbti-poll.html
Prediction: I tried my best not to look at the data despite the high visual salience as soon as you open that link. Here is my prediction: I’d predict strong biases towards Introversion (because internet), slight biases towards iNtuition (because religion is idea-based), moderate bias to Feeling (I think religious people are illogical) and … let’s say a slight tilt towards Judging. Call it a hunch, life experience says that Si (judging + sensing) is particularly predisposed to religion.
Result: OK, looks like my trends were right but my magnitude was way off. My “hunch” was correct but I didn’t listen to it closely enough and vastly underestimated the Judging bias, while my personal prejudice overestimated the Feeling bias. My predictions about intution and introversion were essentially correct though.
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/28171-mbti-demographics.html
Click the ppt, it has data by education.
Prediction: NT’s pursue higher education, SF’s do not. Other two dichotomies don’t matter as much, but J helps slightly.
Result: seems about right. Eyeballing, J seems not to matter much until college, at which point it prevents dropping out.
For IQ—http://asm.sagepub.com/content/3/3/225.short
Prediction- Strong N, slight T bias. I don’t think T actually means “intelligent” as I define it, but I do think it would help on some portions of the IQ test.
Result: N bias only. interesting.
Finally, Scientific aptitude: http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2466/pr0.1970.26.3.711
Prediction—strong N, moderate T. I’m not sure about J-P. I think people who choose science tracks and go into academia will be P (creative types), whereas kids who get good grades but ultimately do not choose science will be J. I’m not sure which group they are looking at (I didn’t permit myself to read it yet, so I’m a bit vague on what exactly they did). I don’t think E—I will matter at all.
Result -
NT take high level science a lot more, Introverts take them slightly more. J-P is irrelevant. Intuition really helps in school at all levels. Feeling relates to high GPA in the easy courses but not the hard course (that’s pretty unexpected) Introversion relates to high GPA in hard course but not in easy courses. Percievers start out with a pretty big edge both in IQ and GPA in the lower level courses, Judging takes a slight lead in both those metrics in the advanced course. Not sure if this is noise.
Side finding—they also did IQ measurements. Again, only N related to IQ (in fact, F won out over T)...but it did not relate as much in the advanced courses. I think the advanced course chopped off the lower end of the IQ bell curve, leaving only smart Sensors. By the way, Extroverts have an IQ edge, despite getting lower grades and not taking advanced courses as often.
Thoughts? I think in general my ideas about introversion not mattering for intelligence, but mattering a lot for internet use, bear out. Apparently Thinking doesn’t really matter either...which I sort of felt was true, but I didn’t actually expect the IQ test scores to agree with me on that. It might have to do with self reported vs actual use of logic.
Of course, we are looking at the center of the bell curve, whereas on LW we are (presumably) looking at the far right edge.
EDIT: here is another IQ one with bigger sample size. http://www.psytech.com/Research/Intelligence-2009-08-11.pdf
They say that they found IQ correlates with I, N, T, and P. However, they claim that were surprised about the “I” correlation, because a large number of other studies have found that E is positively correlated. They go on to talk about how different testing conditions might favor E vs I. Some interesting further reading in there...it seems that N only correlates on the verbal reasoning section,