On the other hand, the fact that such arguments are used to intimidate anyone who dares question a certain position is relevant (possibly successfully remember what happened to Summers). In particular it affects what arguments we expect to have been exposed to.
It isn’t at all relevant. To use a different example (coming from the other side of the poltiical spectrum)- one argument made against releasing the recent torture report was that anyone wanting it released was “anti-American” which is essentially the same sort of thing. The presence of such arguments is in no way relevant to any actual attempt to have a discussion about whether releasing the report was the right thing. No matter what position you discuss someone will be using bad arguments to intimidate people into silence. Rise above it.
Furthermore in Lewin’s case we have no idea what he actually did, thus the only evidence we have is that a committee at MIT decided what he did was bad. Thus to evaluation how much we should trust their conclusion it is necessary to look at the typical level of argument.
The typical level of argument isn’t that when it comes to sexual harassment though. The typical level is a massive mix with some universities overreacting, and other’s underreacting. For every example of a university overreacting there’s an example of it underreacting. For example here.
But this also isn’t relevant for another reason: this entire subthread isnt even discussing the specifics of the Lewin case but a more general question of whehether such issues matter and are worth discussing. It is a red herring to go back to the original situation. But if you really do care about that situation, it might be worth looking at what Scott Aaronson has said on it, I’m curious if this adjusts your estimate at all that this is a minor situation being overblown?
The typical level of argument isn’t that when it comes to sexual harassment though.
I’ve been somewhat following the situation, and yes it is. The fact that you would claim otherwise cause me to update away from trusting other claims or judgements you make on the subject.
But if you really do care about that situation, it might be worth looking at what Scott Aaronson has said on it, I’m curious if this adjusts your estimate at all that this is a minor situation being overblown?
I didn’t see anything in the article that would adjust my estimate. The only thing there is that some who know told Aaronson that “this isn’t a borderline case”, given the kinds of things feminists consider “not borderline cases” these days that isn’t strong evidence.
The typical level of argument isn’t that when it comes to sexual harassment though.
I’ve been somewhat following the situation, and yes it is. The fact that you would claim otherwise cause me to update away from trusting other claims or judgements you make on the subject.
I’m not sure a polite response to that, so let me just ask, given that I just pointed to an example that went in the other direction, maybe it is worth considering, just maybe, possibly, that you are vulnerable here to a combination of confirmation bias and what media sources you are using? Let’s as a start focus on a simple example: were you aware of the example I linked to above before I linked to it?
I didn’t see anything in the article that would adjust my estimate. The only thing there is that some who know told Aaronson that “this isn’t a borderline case”, given the kinds of things feminists consider “not borderline cases” these days that isn’t strong evidence.
At this point, I think we may be having problems with radically different priors, part of which is that I give Aaronson enough credit that I don’t think he’s going to go the most radical end of the women’s studies department and ask for their analysis to get some idea of what happened.
At this point, I think we may be having problems with radically different priors
Aaronson’s post also states that the incidents occurred online, and for that matter on the MITx platform, which caters to MOOC users, not actual MIT students. Given these factors, I just can’t see how MIT’s Damnatio memoriae towards Walter Lewin could be anything but an outrageous overreaction.
I’m not sure at all the relevance of your comment in the context of what we are quoting. The fact that this was not the regular MIT students has been known for a while. I’m also not sure what that has to do with my comment, since everyone here is in agreement that the removal of the videos was an overreaction. (However, I’m not at all sure how the fact that it was with MOOC users rather than regular students makes any difference whatsoever unless you are talking about a very marginal difference in legal liability.) What is the connection between your comment and the part of my comment that you are quoting?
At this point, I think we may be having problems with radically different priors, part of which is that I give Aaronson enough credit that I don’t think he’s going to go the most radical end of the women’s studies department and ask for their analysis to get some idea of what happened.
He can only get information from the people who handled the case, who are likely to be SJW-types.
He can only get information from the people who handled the case, who are likely to be SJW-types.
These issues are handled in general by university committees. Does your lack of knowledge on this fact cause you to update at all about how good your judgment is for such issues?
Also it is worth noting that “SJW-types” in most contexts is a group which is by and large restricted to certain parts of the internet or some parts of certaind departments on campuses.
It isn’t at all relevant. To use a different example (coming from the other side of the poltiical spectrum)- one argument made against releasing the recent torture report was that anyone wanting it released was “anti-American” which is essentially the same sort of thing. The presence of such arguments is in no way relevant to any actual attempt to have a discussion about whether releasing the report was the right thing. No matter what position you discuss someone will be using bad arguments to intimidate people into silence. Rise above it.
The typical level of argument isn’t that when it comes to sexual harassment though. The typical level is a massive mix with some universities overreacting, and other’s underreacting. For every example of a university overreacting there’s an example of it underreacting. For example here.
But this also isn’t relevant for another reason: this entire subthread isnt even discussing the specifics of the Lewin case but a more general question of whehether such issues matter and are worth discussing. It is a red herring to go back to the original situation. But if you really do care about that situation, it might be worth looking at what Scott Aaronson has said on it, I’m curious if this adjusts your estimate at all that this is a minor situation being overblown?
I’ve been somewhat following the situation, and yes it is. The fact that you would claim otherwise cause me to update away from trusting other claims or judgements you make on the subject.
I didn’t see anything in the article that would adjust my estimate. The only thing there is that some who know told Aaronson that “this isn’t a borderline case”, given the kinds of things feminists consider “not borderline cases” these days that isn’t strong evidence.
I’m not sure a polite response to that, so let me just ask, given that I just pointed to an example that went in the other direction, maybe it is worth considering, just maybe, possibly, that you are vulnerable here to a combination of confirmation bias and what media sources you are using? Let’s as a start focus on a simple example: were you aware of the example I linked to above before I linked to it?
At this point, I think we may be having problems with radically different priors, part of which is that I give Aaronson enough credit that I don’t think he’s going to go the most radical end of the women’s studies department and ask for their analysis to get some idea of what happened.
Aaronson’s post also states that the incidents occurred online, and for that matter on the MITx platform, which caters to MOOC users, not actual MIT students. Given these factors, I just can’t see how MIT’s Damnatio memoriae towards Walter Lewin could be anything but an outrageous overreaction.
I’m not sure at all the relevance of your comment in the context of what we are quoting. The fact that this was not the regular MIT students has been known for a while. I’m also not sure what that has to do with my comment, since everyone here is in agreement that the removal of the videos was an overreaction. (However, I’m not at all sure how the fact that it was with MOOC users rather than regular students makes any difference whatsoever unless you are talking about a very marginal difference in legal liability.) What is the connection between your comment and the part of my comment that you are quoting?
He can only get information from the people who handled the case, who are likely to be SJW-types.
These issues are handled in general by university committees. Does your lack of knowledge on this fact cause you to update at all about how good your judgment is for such issues?
Also it is worth noting that “SJW-types” in most contexts is a group which is by and large restricted to certain parts of the internet or some parts of certaind departments on campuses.