So you have to be a utilitarian to be rational? Bad luck for the rest of us. Apparently Aristotle was not pursuing rationality, by your definition. Nor am I.
I don’t know what you mean by “utilitarian”, but if you mean, “one who chooses his actions according to their desired results”, then how can you NOT be a utilitarian? That would indicate that either 1) you’re using a different utility function, or 2) you’re very, very confused.
Or to put it another way, if you say “I choose not to be a utilitarian”, you must be doing it because not being a utilitarian has some utility to you.
If you are arguing that truth is more important than utility in general, rather than being simply one component of a utility function, then you are simply describing what you perceive to be your utility function.
For human beings, all utility boils down to emotion of some kind. That is, if you are arguing that truth (or “rationality” or “validity” or “propriety” or whatever other concept) is most important, you can only do this because that idea makes you feel good… or because it makes you feel less bad than whatever you perceive the alternative is!
The problem with humans is that we don’t have a single, globally consistent, absolutely-determined utility function. We have a collection of ad-hoc, context-sensitive, relative utility and distutility functions. Hell, we can’t even make good decisions when looking at pros and cons simultaneously!
So, if intelligence is efficiently optimizing the future according to your utility function, then rationality could perhaps be considered the process of optimizing your local and non-terminal utility functions to better satisfy your more global ones.
(And I’d like to see how that conflicts with Aristotle—or any other “great” philosopher, for that matter—in a way that doesn’t simply amount to word confusion.)
I’m neither a utilitarian nor a consequentialist, by those definitions. That’s a bunch of stuff that applies only to the map, not the territory.
My statement is that humans do what they do, either to receive pleasure or avoid pain. (What other beings get from their actions is only relevant insofar as that creates pleasure or pain for the decider.)
In order to falsify this statement, you’d need to prove the existence of some supernatural entity that is not ruled by cause-and-effect. That is, you’d have to prove that “free will” or a “soul” exists. Good luck with that. ;-)
For verification of this statement, on the other hand, we can simply continue to understand better and better how the brain works, especially how pain and pleasure interact with memory formation and retrieval.
In order to falsify this statement, you’d need to prove the existence of some supernatural entity that is not ruled by cause-and-effect
Congratulations! Your claim is non-falsifiable, and therefore is nonsense.
You claim that humans do what they do either to receive pleasure or avoid pain. That sounds implausible to me. I’d happily list counterexamples, but I get the impression you’d just explain them away as “Oh, what he’s really going after is pleasure” or “What he’s really doing is avoiding pain.”
if your explanation fits all possible data, then it doesn’t explain anything.
Congratulations! Your claim is non-falsifiable, and therefore is nonsense.… I’d happily list counterexamples, but I get the impression you’d just explain them away as “Oh, what he’s really going after is pleasure” or “What he’s really doing is avoiding pain.”
Wait… are you saying that atheism, science, and materialism are all nonsense?
I’m only saying that people do things for reasons. That is, our actions are the effects of causes.
So, are you really saying that the idea of cause-and-effect is nonsense? Because I can’t currently conceive of a definition of rationality where there’s no such thing as cause-and-effect.
Meanwhile, I notice you’re being VERY selective in your quoting… like dropping off the “that is not ruled by cause-and-effect” part of the sentence you just quoted. I don’t think that’s very helpful to the dialog, since it makes you appear more interested in rhetorically “winning” some sort of debate, than in collaborating towards truth. Is that the sort of “character” you are recommending people develop as rationalists?
(Note: this is not an attack… because I’m not fighting you. My definition of “win” in this context is better understanding—first for me, and then for everyone else. So it is not necessary for someone else to “lose” in order for me to “win”.)
I didn’t think the ‘that is not ruled by cause-and-effect’ was relevant—I was granting that your argument required something less specific than it actually did, since I didn’t even need that other stuff. But if you prefer, I’ll edit it into my earlier comment.
Atheism (as a theory) is falsifiable, if you specify exactly which god you don’t believe in and how you’d know it if you saw it. Then if that being is ever found, you know your theory has been falsified.
I’ve never heard ‘Science’ framed as a theory, so my criticism would not apply. Feel free to posit a theory of science and I’ll tell you whether it makes sense.
Materialism is mostly justified on methodological grounds, and is also not a theory.
Psychological hedonism, however, is a theory, and if it’s clearly specified then there are easy counterexamples.
A reason is not the same as a cause. Though reasons can be causes.
I didn’t say anything like “the idea of cause-and-effect is nonsense”. Rather, I said that our actions have causes other than the avoidance of pain and the pursuit of pleasure. You seem to think that the only thing that can constitute a ‘cause’ for a human is pleasure or pain, given that you’ve equated the concepts.
I’m only saying that people do things for reasons. That is, our actions are the effects of causes.
That’s not all you’re saying, at all. I would agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. Whilst denying that I try to maximize any sort of utility or am ruled by drives towards pleasure and pain.
So you have to be a utilitarian to be rational? Bad luck for the rest of us. Apparently Aristotle was not pursuing rationality, by your definition. Nor am I.
I don’t know what you mean by “utilitarian”, but if you mean, “one who chooses his actions according to their desired results”, then how can you NOT be a utilitarian? That would indicate that either 1) you’re using a different utility function, or 2) you’re very, very confused.
Or to put it another way, if you say “I choose not to be a utilitarian”, you must be doing it because not being a utilitarian has some utility to you.
If you are arguing that truth is more important than utility in general, rather than being simply one component of a utility function, then you are simply describing what you perceive to be your utility function.
For human beings, all utility boils down to emotion of some kind. That is, if you are arguing that truth (or “rationality” or “validity” or “propriety” or whatever other concept) is most important, you can only do this because that idea makes you feel good… or because it makes you feel less bad than whatever you perceive the alternative is!
The problem with humans is that we don’t have a single, globally consistent, absolutely-determined utility function. We have a collection of ad-hoc, context-sensitive, relative utility and distutility functions. Hell, we can’t even make good decisions when looking at pros and cons simultaneously!
So, if intelligence is efficiently optimizing the future according to your utility function, then rationality could perhaps be considered the process of optimizing your local and non-terminal utility functions to better satisfy your more global ones.
(And I’d like to see how that conflicts with Aristotle—or any other “great” philosopher, for that matter—in a way that doesn’t simply amount to word confusion.)
utilitarianism or, if you prefer, consequentialism
Is this theory falsifiable? What experiment would convince you that this isn’t true? Or will this quickly turn into a ‘true scotsman’ argument?
Take this, reverse the normative content, and you have a view more like mine.
Humans are awesome in part because we’re not utility maximizers. To paraphrase Nietzsche:
I’m neither a utilitarian nor a consequentialist, by those definitions. That’s a bunch of stuff that applies only to the map, not the territory.
My statement is that humans do what they do, either to receive pleasure or avoid pain. (What other beings get from their actions is only relevant insofar as that creates pleasure or pain for the decider.)
In order to falsify this statement, you’d need to prove the existence of some supernatural entity that is not ruled by cause-and-effect. That is, you’d have to prove that “free will” or a “soul” exists. Good luck with that. ;-)
For verification of this statement, on the other hand, we can simply continue to understand better and better how the brain works, especially how pain and pleasure interact with memory formation and retrieval.
Congratulations! Your claim is non-falsifiable, and therefore is nonsense.
You claim that humans do what they do either to receive pleasure or avoid pain. That sounds implausible to me. I’d happily list counterexamples, but I get the impression you’d just explain them away as “Oh, what he’s really going after is pleasure” or “What he’s really doing is avoiding pain.”
if your explanation fits all possible data, then it doesn’t explain anything.
Example: Masochists pursue pain. Discuss.
Black Belt Bayesian: Unfalsifiable Ideas versus Unfalsifiable People
Wait… are you saying that atheism, science, and materialism are all nonsense?
I’m only saying that people do things for reasons. That is, our actions are the effects of causes.
So, are you really saying that the idea of cause-and-effect is nonsense? Because I can’t currently conceive of a definition of rationality where there’s no such thing as cause-and-effect.
Meanwhile, I notice you’re being VERY selective in your quoting… like dropping off the “that is not ruled by cause-and-effect” part of the sentence you just quoted. I don’t think that’s very helpful to the dialog, since it makes you appear more interested in rhetorically “winning” some sort of debate, than in collaborating towards truth. Is that the sort of “character” you are recommending people develop as rationalists?
(Note: this is not an attack… because I’m not fighting you. My definition of “win” in this context is better understanding—first for me, and then for everyone else. So it is not necessary for someone else to “lose” in order for me to “win”.)
I didn’t think the ‘that is not ruled by cause-and-effect’ was relevant—I was granting that your argument required something less specific than it actually did, since I didn’t even need that other stuff. But if you prefer, I’ll edit it into my earlier comment.
Atheism (as a theory) is falsifiable, if you specify exactly which god you don’t believe in and how you’d know it if you saw it. Then if that being is ever found, you know your theory has been falsified.
I’ve never heard ‘Science’ framed as a theory, so my criticism would not apply. Feel free to posit a theory of science and I’ll tell you whether it makes sense.
Materialism is mostly justified on methodological grounds, and is also not a theory.
Psychological hedonism, however, is a theory, and if it’s clearly specified then there are easy counterexamples.
A reason is not the same as a cause. Though reasons can be causes.
I didn’t say anything like “the idea of cause-and-effect is nonsense”. Rather, I said that our actions have causes other than the avoidance of pain and the pursuit of pleasure. You seem to think that the only thing that can constitute a ‘cause’ for a human is pleasure or pain, given that you’ve equated the concepts.
That’s not all you’re saying, at all. I would agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. Whilst denying that I try to maximize any sort of utility or am ruled by drives towards pleasure and pain.