I wonder: Whether a world “with lots of high-grade rationalists” necessarily is a friendly world. I doubt it. So I think rationality has to be tempered with something else. Let’s just call it “the milk of human kindness”.
How did you manage that!? What I want to know is what were the 3 people who downvoted my humorous comment thinking? Maybe 3 out of all the 10 or so people still reading this thread actually thought I was serious and downvoted me for ingroup bias? Or maybe people think that humor is a no-no on LW? I can see how too much humor would dilute the debate. Writing humorous comments is fun, and probably good in small amounts, but if it caught on this could turn into a social space rather than an intellectual one…
It doesn’t take much—just one jerk systematically downvoting a page or two of your existing comments. I lost like 37 points in less than an hour that way a few days ago. We really need separate up/down counts, or better yet ups and downs per voter, so you can ignore systematic friend upvotes and foe downvotes.
Couldn’t it also be due to a change in the karma calculation rules in order to, say, not take your own upvote in account on karma calculations? I remember that was mentioned, but don’t know if it was implemented in the meantime.
Edit: Well, it seems that it isn’t implemented yet, since posting this got me a karma point :)
By principle of charity, I interpret Marshall as saying not that rationalists can’t be kind, but that rationalism alone doesn’t make you kind. Judging by my informal torture vs. pie experiments, I find this to be true. Rationality is necessary but not sufficient for a friendly world. We also need people who value the right kind of things. Rationality can help clarify and amplify morality, but it’s got to start from pre-rational sources. Until further research is done, I suggest making everyone watch a lot of Thundercats and seeing whether that helps :)
Of course, like with every use of the principle of charity, I might just be reading too much into a statement that really was stupid.
Your torture vs. pie experiment makes me think of another potential experiment. Is torture ever preferable to making, say, 3^^^3 people never have pie again? (In the sense of dust specks, the never eating pie is to be the entire consequence of the action. The potential pie utility is just gone, nothing else.)
“Marshall doesn’t have to be voted down for being wrong. He can be voted down for using an applause light and being vague”
I have stared at this sentence for a long time, and I have wondered and wondered. I too have read my comments again. They are not vague. Not in the slightest. I think they belong to a slightly other reference-set than the other postings and emphasize language as metaphor (which I think Eliezer calls appealing to applause lights).
I would call Eliezers quoted sentence as brutal. Majesticaly brutal—and I would think they have contributed to the 23 karma-points I lost in 12 hours of non-activity.
I have no wish to be a member of a club, who will not have me. I have no wish to be a member of a club with royal commands.
“I have no wish to be a member of a club, who will not have me.”
This is not the case. You’ve made over 30 comments; it’s trivial for an individual to swing your karma by large amounts. I note that your karma has made large swings in the ~30 minutes I’ve been considering this reply. If you want to discuss the group dynamics of LW then I have more to say, but I’m going to request (temporarily) that you don’t accuse me of groupthink or status seeking if you do.
I wonder: Whether a world “with lots of high-grade rationalists” necessarily is a friendly world. I doubt it. So I think rationality has to be tempered with something else. Let’s just call it “the milk of human kindness”.
I’m surprised to see this go negative.
Granted, Marshall didn’t explain his position in any detail. But his position is not indefensible, and I’m glad he’s willing to share it.
Downvote this heretic! I wannt see him on −50 Karma, dammit! ;-0
Thanks Roko—nice with a bit of humour—btw your wish is almost granted I’ve lost 23 points in the space of 12 hours. Rationalists are fun people.....
How did you manage that!? What I want to know is what were the 3 people who downvoted my humorous comment thinking? Maybe 3 out of all the 10 or so people still reading this thread actually thought I was serious and downvoted me for ingroup bias? Or maybe people think that humor is a no-no on LW? I can see how too much humor would dilute the debate. Writing humorous comments is fun, and probably good in small amounts, but if it caught on this could turn into a social space rather than an intellectual one…
It doesn’t take much—just one jerk systematically downvoting a page or two of your existing comments. I lost like 37 points in less than an hour that way a few days ago. We really need separate up/down counts, or better yet ups and downs per voter, so you can ignore systematic friend upvotes and foe downvotes.
Are we already getting this behavior? I’ll have to start looking into voting patterns… Sigh.
Have you looked at Raph Levien’s work on attack resistant trust metrics?
Couldn’t it also be due to a change in the karma calculation rules in order to, say, not take your own upvote in account on karma calculations? I remember that was mentioned, but don’t know if it was implemented in the meantime.
Edit: Well, it seems that it isn’t implemented yet, since posting this got me a karma point :)
If your picture of a high-grade rationalist is still this Spock crap, what are you doing here?
By principle of charity, I interpret Marshall as saying not that rationalists can’t be kind, but that rationalism alone doesn’t make you kind. Judging by my informal torture vs. pie experiments, I find this to be true. Rationality is necessary but not sufficient for a friendly world. We also need people who value the right kind of things. Rationality can help clarify and amplify morality, but it’s got to start from pre-rational sources. Until further research is done, I suggest making everyone watch a lot of Thundercats and seeing whether that helps :)
Of course, like with every use of the principle of charity, I might just be reading too much into a statement that really was stupid.
Your torture vs. pie experiment makes me think of another potential experiment. Is torture ever preferable to making, say, 3^^^3 people never have pie again? (In the sense of dust specks, the never eating pie is to be the entire consequence of the action. The potential pie utility is just gone, nothing else.)
By the principle of accuracy, I look up Marshall’s other comments: http://lesswrong.com/user/Marshall/
Marshall doesn’t have to be voted down for being wrong. He can be voted down for using an applause light and being vague.
“Marshall doesn’t have to be voted down for being wrong. He can be voted down for using an applause light and being vague.”
So can Eliezer_Yudkowsky.
“Marshall doesn’t have to be voted down for being wrong. He can be voted down for using an applause light and being vague”
I have stared at this sentence for a long time, and I have wondered and wondered. I too have read my comments again. They are not vague. Not in the slightest. I think they belong to a slightly other reference-set than the other postings and emphasize language as metaphor (which I think Eliezer calls appealing to applause lights).
I would call Eliezers quoted sentence as brutal. Majesticaly brutal—and I would think they have contributed to the 23 karma-points I lost in 12 hours of non-activity.
I have no wish to be a member of a club, who will not have me. I have no wish to be a member of a club with royal commands.
“I have no wish to be a member of a club, who will not have me.”
This is not the case. You’ve made over 30 comments; it’s trivial for an individual to swing your karma by large amounts. I note that your karma has made large swings in the ~30 minutes I’ve been considering this reply. If you want to discuss the group dynamics of LW then I have more to say, but I’m going to request (temporarily) that you don’t accuse me of groupthink or status seeking if you do.