I honestly don’t know whether or not they (as in AMOG, BF Destroyer, Bitch Shield, and other “immoral” tactics) work in general. I don’t think they do...at least, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t work on the type of woman I’d be interested in, so they are useless to me anyway regardless of moral qualms. Perhaps, for someone with a different set of goals working with a different demographic, these things would work.
If I had to guess, I bet that a lot of the more morally acceptable tactics the PUA community teaches—appropriate eye contact, body language, “kino” (non-creepy use of touch), playful banter - do increase attractiveness, and that the immoral ones don’t, but when you mix everything together you net a total gain in attractiveness.
But as long as those choosing the winners choose “assholes”, I find it hard to hold “being an asshole” against someone.
I don’t find it hard at all. Corrupt politicians and businessmen “win” all the time, but I find that it is shockingly easy to dislike them. But it doesn’t really matter whether or not one “holds things” against anyone...all that matters in the end is the decision about whether the behavior should be encouraged, or not.
Also, it’s a little odd to say that women are choosing the “winners”. It doesn’t have to be a competition, and being “chosen” by a women isn’t necessarily “winning”...or at least, it certainly isn’t one of my terminal goals.
I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t work on the type of woman I’d be interested in
I used to think things like that too. The older I got, the less I believed it. We grow up being taught certain idealizations about how people should be. They aren’t like that.
Corrupt politicians and businessmen “win” all the time, but I still don’t like them...
I don’t like them either. But I blame the people who vote for them. They’re the true problem.
I used to think things like that too. The older I got, the less I believed it. We grow up being taught certain idealizations about how people should be. They aren’t like that.
If you are saying you know better because you are older, I can’t argue with that because I am young. But as long as we are making arguments from experience, I’ve got to say, I think my girlfriend is like that. At the very least, I find that some of the population fit some of the idealizations of how people should be—although very few people fit them all.
And as long as we are speaking from experience, plenty of women have been attracted to me, despite my never pulling any of the subset of PUA behaviors which I’ve described as immoral. I’m not saying that being “nice” is all it takes—a lot of it is about being attractive, tall, well dressed and socially adept—and two of those things are trainable. I am just saying that being “bad” is not necessary...and I’d maintain that in the long run it’s not even helpful, since the type of people you attract is partly a reflection of your behavior.
If you are saying you know better because you are older,
I think I know better than I used to. Generalization increasingly made based on observations that cut across my natural preferences—not wishful thinking.
I think my girlfriend is like that.
Your girlfriend prefers a diffident man over a confident man? It’s always possible. We don’t all come from the same cookie cutter.
Your girlfriend prefers a diffident man over a confident man?
No, that’s really not what I said.
You said
To a large extent, the fact that such tactics win offends my sensibilities, I find the tactics annoying, and I would encourage those in a position to change the outcome to make those tactics lose.
I said in response
I’m pretty sure they [aforementioned PUA tactics] wouldn’t work on the type of woman I’d be interested in
You said in response
We grow up being taught certain idealizations about how people should be. They aren’t like that.
and that’s why I said
my girlfriend isn’t like that
“Like that” here means: not attracted to people who display “confidence” via aforementioned PUA tactics—by putting others down (AMOG), being overly persistent after being told off (bitch shield destroying) and pressuring people to make decisions they might regret later (bf destroyer).
So when I say my girlfriend is “like that” I mean she is someone who is not attracted to irresponsible, morally questionable displays of dominance which involve being presumptuous and putting other people down. As in, the tactics which you said would offend your sensibilities.
It is important to disassociate confidence (a positive trait) from a cluster of tactics which you just said offend your sensibilities (negative traits). Why did you just now treat “confidence” and “sensibility offending tactics” as synonymous? If the two are conflated in your mind and your model of confidence necessarily includes sensibility offending behavior, you’re going to end up either instinctively avoiding confidence or instinctively engaging in behavior that offends yourself...
I was discussing the basic premise that women prefer confident, dominating men. If they’re correct on the premise, then it’s just an argument over what techniques are effective to counterfeit that signal, if any.
You say the PUA tactics don’t work on your girlfriend. Maybe. I’d note that even if someone says they don’t like a particular tactic, that doesn’t mean that the tactic didn’t have the desired effect—“I really hate it when my confident, dominant man does X”. Yeah. But would you find him confident and dominant if he didn’t? Would he be “your man” if he didn’t?
I agree, that’s the trend. More the confident than the dominating though.
an argument over what techniques are effective to counterfeit that signal, if any.
Agreed on that too.
Here are signals which work, and I like- smiling, eye contact, casual touch, joking, interesting conversation...
Here are signals which work, and I don’t like that they work, but I do not morally object—demonstrating that other women are interested, being well dressed, displaying wealth, being in a position of authority....
These are signals which I morally object to, and I also express skepticism as to whether you get good results in the long run if you use these: subtle insults targeting insecurities (neg), antagonistic stance to other males (amog), ignoring “leave me alone” cues (bitch shield breaking), pressurizing in the face of significant resistance (bf destroyer and others)...
More universally, but dominating is probably more effective when it does work. And actual dominance over others—demonstrable power—is a huge plus.
Here are signals which work, and I don’t like that they work, but I do not morally object—demonstrating that other women are interested, being well dressed, displaying wealth, being in a position of authority....
I’ve been getting over the don’t like it part. Women are what they are.
[1] subtle insults targeting insecurities (neg), [2] antagonistic stance to other males (amog), [3] ignoring “leave me alone” cues (bitch shield breaking), [4] pressurizing in the face of significant resistance (bf destroyer and others)...
[1] Didn’t people used to just call this banter? Challenging back and forth remarks? Is Cary Grant “negging” in His Girl Friday? It doesn’t work universally—I find some women are just annoyed by banter and refuse to hit the ball back—but it’s a lot of fun when it does.
[2] Signals dominance. If it succeeds in driving other male off, so much the better. I’d wonder if the better strategy is alliance with the resident alpha male if he is on the hunt.
[3] Do the game theory. Bitch shield breaking more likely for desirable outcome for the PUA than scurrying off. You can’t win if you don’t play. They seem big on making it a numbers game.
[4] Significant resistance would imply to me at least a relatively bad hand. Play the bad hand, or fold. Similar to [3] in taking advantage of all opportunities.
For 2,3,4, there must be some point at which the opportunity costs make them a bad bet, though it seems something of a game of discovery where finding what works is a terminal good for them. But the strategies do seem to improve the odds of less than optimal situations to me. They don’t always work, but they do seem like good plays of bad hands.
There is almost zero doubt that those strategies work, and work extremely well. Every successful PUA I know keeps detailed logs of their interactions (or kept them at one point), and measures the effectiveness of their pitches.
Many guys do it just like telemarketing. They throw out their routines and track how many hang ups (well, walk aways) they get, how many conversions they get (and to what extent), and how each line impacts their numbers relative to the demographic they’re approaching. Other guys will adopt a tactic and use nothing-but-it for a week. You get very good data on it’s strengths and weaknesses. Again, good/bad tactics are discerned quickly and everything is very grounded in reality.
Your talk about ‘immoral’ and ‘acceptable’ tactics generally mirrors something called ‘inner game’ and ‘outer game’ in the PUA community. Inner game is general ‘being more attractive’ advice and is always applied. Outer game is a toolbox of very specific tools that you pull out for a purpose. Because most outer game is very specific, it is incredibly easy to get succes rates, and as a result these strategies have the most thorough numbers on success rates. I assure you, they are very effective.
I honestly don’t know whether or not they (as in AMOG, BF Destroyer, Bitch Shield, and other “immoral” tactics) work in general. I don’t think they do...at least, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t work on the type of woman I’d be interested in, so they are useless to me anyway regardless of moral qualms.
Since one of those is actually a tactic used by females and one is tautologically a male tactic (the other being technically sex neutral but practically male) I’m also pretty sure that you couldn’t use at least one of them, regardless of your moral qualms and sexual identity.
“Bitch Shield” is a tactic for quickly filtering potential mates via subjecting them to stimulus that quickly discourages socially weak candidates. One could call it an immoral tactic, but there doesn’t seem like much point to such labeling.
Much of dealing with “AMOGs” is also about influences on other males and on the social group. Unless “the type of woman you’d be interested in” outright rejects any male she sees competing socially with other males then “wouldn’t work on her” just doesn’t make any sense.
“Bitch Shield” is a tactic for quickly filtering potential mates via subjecting them to stimulus that quickly discourages socially weak candidates. One could call it an immoral tactic, but there doesn’t seem like much point to such labeling.
I was referring to the idea that one should try to “get past” the “bitch shield” as immoral, because it is essentially an excuse for bothering people who don’t want to be bothered. I wasn’t referring to the “bitch shield” itself.
“the type of woman you’d be interested in” outright rejects any male she sees competing socially with other males then “wouldn’t work on her” just doesn’t make any sense
Why not? It’s really not fun to be around people who view social interactions as a competition.
Also, “competing socially” really softens the antagonistic behavior advocated in the forum.
to remove a potential male competitor—through physical, verbal, or psychological tactics
What, you wouldn’t reject someone who tried to pull that?
Bitch shields are employed by both genders. It’s just a term that is used because +90% of PUAs are straight men looking for women. Gay guys deploy them against other guys (and girls), and straight guys deploy them against women they aren’t interested in.
The terminology is decidedly female, but it’s an equal opportunity tactic. Although admittedly, used far more often by women.
Ditto with AMOG’ing. I’ve seen alpha females of combined groups go at it like it’s Game of Thrones. It’s the same methods and goals, just with a gender swap.
It is true that many social dominance strategies relating to courtship are either applicable for either sex or have loosely comparable cross-sex analogues.
I honestly don’t know whether or not they (as in AMOG, BF Destroyer, Bitch Shield, and other “immoral” tactics) work in general. I don’t think they do...at least, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t work on the type of woman I’d be interested in, so they are useless to me anyway regardless of moral qualms. Perhaps, for someone with a different set of goals working with a different demographic, these things would work.
If I had to guess, I bet that a lot of the more morally acceptable tactics the PUA community teaches—appropriate eye contact, body language, “kino” (non-creepy use of touch), playful banter - do increase attractiveness, and that the immoral ones don’t, but when you mix everything together you net a total gain in attractiveness.
I don’t find it hard at all. Corrupt politicians and businessmen “win” all the time, but I find that it is shockingly easy to dislike them. But it doesn’t really matter whether or not one “holds things” against anyone...all that matters in the end is the decision about whether the behavior should be encouraged, or not.
Also, it’s a little odd to say that women are choosing the “winners”. It doesn’t have to be a competition, and being “chosen” by a women isn’t necessarily “winning”...or at least, it certainly isn’t one of my terminal goals.
I used to think things like that too. The older I got, the less I believed it. We grow up being taught certain idealizations about how people should be. They aren’t like that.
I don’t like them either. But I blame the people who vote for them. They’re the true problem.
If you are saying you know better because you are older, I can’t argue with that because I am young. But as long as we are making arguments from experience, I’ve got to say, I think my girlfriend is like that. At the very least, I find that some of the population fit some of the idealizations of how people should be—although very few people fit them all.
And as long as we are speaking from experience, plenty of women have been attracted to me, despite my never pulling any of the subset of PUA behaviors which I’ve described as immoral. I’m not saying that being “nice” is all it takes—a lot of it is about being attractive, tall, well dressed and socially adept—and two of those things are trainable. I am just saying that being “bad” is not necessary...and I’d maintain that in the long run it’s not even helpful, since the type of people you attract is partly a reflection of your behavior.
But that’s not really the test. The controlled test would be whether you had more success or less using the PUA behaviors or not.
I think I know better than I used to. Generalization increasingly made based on observations that cut across my natural preferences—not wishful thinking.
Your girlfriend prefers a diffident man over a confident man? It’s always possible. We don’t all come from the same cookie cutter.
No, that’s really not what I said.
You said
I said in response
You said in response
and that’s why I said
“Like that” here means: not attracted to people who display “confidence” via aforementioned PUA tactics—by putting others down (AMOG), being overly persistent after being told off (bitch shield destroying) and pressuring people to make decisions they might regret later (bf destroyer).
So when I say my girlfriend is “like that” I mean she is someone who is not attracted to irresponsible, morally questionable displays of dominance which involve being presumptuous and putting other people down. As in, the tactics which you said would offend your sensibilities.
It is important to disassociate confidence (a positive trait) from a cluster of tactics which you just said offend your sensibilities (negative traits). Why did you just now treat “confidence” and “sensibility offending tactics” as synonymous? If the two are conflated in your mind and your model of confidence necessarily includes sensibility offending behavior, you’re going to end up either instinctively avoiding confidence or instinctively engaging in behavior that offends yourself...
I was discussing the basic premise that women prefer confident, dominating men. If they’re correct on the premise, then it’s just an argument over what techniques are effective to counterfeit that signal, if any.
You say the PUA tactics don’t work on your girlfriend. Maybe. I’d note that even if someone says they don’t like a particular tactic, that doesn’t mean that the tactic didn’t have the desired effect—“I really hate it when my confident, dominant man does X”. Yeah. But would you find him confident and dominant if he didn’t? Would he be “your man” if he didn’t?
I think I’ve misrepresented my position
I agree, that’s the trend. More the confident than the dominating though.
Agreed on that too.
Here are signals which work, and I like- smiling, eye contact, casual touch, joking, interesting conversation...
Here are signals which work, and I don’t like that they work, but I do not morally object—demonstrating that other women are interested, being well dressed, displaying wealth, being in a position of authority....
These are signals which I morally object to, and I also express skepticism as to whether you get good results in the long run if you use these: subtle insults targeting insecurities (neg), antagonistic stance to other males (amog), ignoring “leave me alone” cues (bitch shield breaking), pressurizing in the face of significant resistance (bf destroyer and others)...
More universally, but dominating is probably more effective when it does work. And actual dominance over others—demonstrable power—is a huge plus.
I’ve been getting over the don’t like it part. Women are what they are.
[1] Didn’t people used to just call this banter? Challenging back and forth remarks? Is Cary Grant “negging” in His Girl Friday? It doesn’t work universally—I find some women are just annoyed by banter and refuse to hit the ball back—but it’s a lot of fun when it does.
[2] Signals dominance. If it succeeds in driving other male off, so much the better. I’d wonder if the better strategy is alliance with the resident alpha male if he is on the hunt.
[3] Do the game theory. Bitch shield breaking more likely for desirable outcome for the PUA than scurrying off. You can’t win if you don’t play. They seem big on making it a numbers game.
[4] Significant resistance would imply to me at least a relatively bad hand. Play the bad hand, or fold. Similar to [3] in taking advantage of all opportunities.
For 2,3,4, there must be some point at which the opportunity costs make them a bad bet, though it seems something of a game of discovery where finding what works is a terminal good for them. But the strategies do seem to improve the odds of less than optimal situations to me. They don’t always work, but they do seem like good plays of bad hands.
There is almost zero doubt that those strategies work, and work extremely well. Every successful PUA I know keeps detailed logs of their interactions (or kept them at one point), and measures the effectiveness of their pitches.
Many guys do it just like telemarketing. They throw out their routines and track how many hang ups (well, walk aways) they get, how many conversions they get (and to what extent), and how each line impacts their numbers relative to the demographic they’re approaching. Other guys will adopt a tactic and use nothing-but-it for a week. You get very good data on it’s strengths and weaknesses. Again, good/bad tactics are discerned quickly and everything is very grounded in reality.
Your talk about ‘immoral’ and ‘acceptable’ tactics generally mirrors something called ‘inner game’ and ‘outer game’ in the PUA community. Inner game is general ‘being more attractive’ advice and is always applied. Outer game is a toolbox of very specific tools that you pull out for a purpose. Because most outer game is very specific, it is incredibly easy to get succes rates, and as a result these strategies have the most thorough numbers on success rates. I assure you, they are very effective.
Since one of those is actually a tactic used by females and one is tautologically a male tactic (the other being technically sex neutral but practically male) I’m also pretty sure that you couldn’t use at least one of them, regardless of your moral qualms and sexual identity.
“Bitch Shield” is a tactic for quickly filtering potential mates via subjecting them to stimulus that quickly discourages socially weak candidates. One could call it an immoral tactic, but there doesn’t seem like much point to such labeling.
Much of dealing with “AMOGs” is also about influences on other males and on the social group. Unless “the type of woman you’d be interested in” outright rejects any male she sees competing socially with other males then “wouldn’t work on her” just doesn’t make any sense.
I was referring to the idea that one should try to “get past” the “bitch shield” as immoral, because it is essentially an excuse for bothering people who don’t want to be bothered. I wasn’t referring to the “bitch shield” itself.
Why not? It’s really not fun to be around people who view social interactions as a competition.
Also, “competing socially” really softens the antagonistic behavior advocated in the forum.
What, you wouldn’t reject someone who tried to pull that?
Bitch shields are employed by both genders. It’s just a term that is used because +90% of PUAs are straight men looking for women. Gay guys deploy them against other guys (and girls), and straight guys deploy them against women they aren’t interested in.
The terminology is decidedly female, but it’s an equal opportunity tactic. Although admittedly, used far more often by women.
Ditto with AMOG’ing. I’ve seen alpha females of combined groups go at it like it’s Game of Thrones. It’s the same methods and goals, just with a gender swap.
It is true that many social dominance strategies relating to courtship are either applicable for either sex or have loosely comparable cross-sex analogues.