A fourth thing I want to flag is that Alex said two weeks ago he was intending to reply more, and has not done so. Which means he hasn’t replied to any of the things I wanted to flag. The one thing he replied to was basically an aside, separate from the main point of “you’ve explained your observation, but here’s another possible explanation for it”.
I want to flag this for the same reason as I wanted to flag the others. It seems to me that Alex’s comments have a substantial amount of the “it’s hard to read this and stay sane” thing.
To explain this flag in more detail: I think that if a person reads this discussion and doesn’t track carefully, they might see that: “Alex replied to something philh said. He gave a different explanation for his behaviour than philh suggested, and then followed up in more detail. His explanation seems reasonable.” And they might lose sight of: “but the thing Alex replied to was an aside. The main point of that flag is still open, and so are the other flags.”
And this person might see: “Alex appears cooperative and non-defensive here, and has said he’ll reply further.” And they might think: “there’s no need to reach any conclusions now, I can wait until I know more”. And if they notice that Alex didn’t reply further: “oh, well, maybe he just forgot, or got busy, or....” And they might simply stop thinking about it, and fail to reach any conclusions.
I don’t claim to know what’s happening inside Alex’s head. But it does seem to me that his writings have these effects.
It’s possible this is a fairly normal level of “hard to read and stay sane”? I may only be picking up on it because he accused Shekinah’s original letter of doing the thing, and that primed me to look out for it, or something. This doesn’t feel like it’s the case to me, but it might be.
Even if that is the case, it seems worthwhile to point out these effects explicitly.
And they might simply stop thinking about it, and fail to reach any conclusions.
I don’t want to make this mistake myself. It’s important not to jump to premature conclusions, but it’s also important to be able to reach conclusions eventually. I’ve now reread the original letter, along with this comment thread and Shekinah’s follow up.
There’s no obvious reason for me to share my conclusions. I have no relationship to any people or organizations involved here. But given my previous comments, especially the preamble to my first one… it feels like some kind of failure mode for me not to share them. Like I’m saying “here is how we do things” and then not caring whether we actually do the things. So with that in mind:
But it’s also consistent with a different world, where those things are straightforwardly revealing of failures on the part of yourself and/or Monastic Academy, and Shminux is just correctly picking up on that.
I now believe we’re in substantially this world. Alex raped Shekinah. OAK/MA attempted to cover this up. Shekinah’s original letter made this much clear. Alex is some combination of lying and delusional about the situation.
I don’t know all the details, but I don’t expect those particular conclusions would change if I did.
Having no connection to this situation, my sense is that there’s nothing particular I should be doing with these conclusions. Alex is unwelcome at any events that I run, but since we live on different continents he was unlikely to anyway.
Well no I definitely did not rape Shekinah. I don’t think even she accuses me of that in her post.
It’s been quite a difficult few weeks at this end, which is why I haven’t replied more to your comment. I see the following points in your comment:
The paragraph that goes “So firstly I want to flag that this observation is consistent with the world you assert… But it’s also consistent with a different world, where those things are straightforwardly revealing of failures on the part of yourself and/or Monastic Academy” where you critique my non-linking to Shekinah’s medium post
The part where you critique my talking about “this darkness that lies at the heart of various rationalist orgs” in response to shminux’s post
The part that goes “I want to flag that shminux seemed to make several criticisms …” where you mention that I didn’t respond to all of shminux’s points
I believe I have responded to (1). Given that you’ve apparently decided that I’m definitely a rapist (“I now believe we’re in substantially this world. Alex raped Shekinah.”), are you interested in further dialog on (2) or (3), and are there any further points that I’ve missed?
I don’t think even she accuses me of that in her post.
Recall that the description in the original letter was:
Without any conversation about consent, without any kissing or foreplay, or any previous sexual engagement and despite the boundaries previously stated; he then jumped on top of me and entered my body. This encounter was over before I could even react. I did NOT have an opportunity to make a choice and I did NOT give my consent.
The thing Shekinah describes here is rape, legally and ethically, whether she uses the word or not.
There is more I’d like to say here. There are questions that I don’t really know how to navigate, around respecting Shekinah’s agency and privacy and right to self-definition. But having that conversation with Alex seems disrespectful. So anyone who isn’t Alex is welcome to PM me for further thoughts.
I believe I have responded to (1).
You have not. In a previous comment I pointed out that you responded to an aside, in ways that made it easy for someone not paying attention to think you had responded to (1).
Critiquing your non-linking was simply not the point of that flag. The structure of the main thing I was going for was: “you provide explanation A for observation X. But B would also explain X.” And the reason I was saying this was something like: it’s easy to see an explanation, check that it makes sense/is consistent with the available evidence, and then assume it’s true. I think we more reliably arrive at true conclusions if we keep in mind that there are other possible explanations, and pointing out another possible explanation helps with that.
you’ve apparently decided that I’m definitely a rapist
I do think you’re a rapist, but “definitely” is coming out of nowhere here.
are you interested in further dialog on (2) or (3)
Probably not super interested.
But, to be clear… this is only partly because I think you’re a rapist? It’s also because this is a frustrating conversation for me even completely ignoring that.
I said, early on, that I wasn’t directly talking about the accusations. That was true, and for the most part it’s still true. I have now directly spoken about the accusations. But none of the things I flagged were directly about them; and the things I flagged are not primarily why I believe them.
But like, I specifically said that you didn’t address point (1). And then you said you thought you’d addressed it, without even acknowledging that I said you hadn’t. So...
...combine that with the multiple other ways, in this thread, that I’ve pointed out where I think you’ve essentially “missed the point”, zero of which you’ve replied to...
...I really don’t see this being a productive conversation? Especially not for the amount of effort it’s taking.
And then there’s the fact that, yeah, I think you’re a rapist and I feel kinda weird having a semi-polite conversation with you on what’s kind of a question of procedural norms? Especially in this particular comment thread.
All that said: I do think the questions “is Alex a rapist” and “are Alex’s comments bad in the ways I think they are” are different questions. You get to defend yourself on the second even if you’re guilty on the first.
(And obviously you get to defend yourself on the first question too. I’m not having that conversation in public, but I’d be potentially open to a private conversation through a mediator we both trust, if you happen to want that.)
So like, if you think your comments are not bad in the ways I think they’re bad, and you want to put in the effort to defend them… I don’t promise a reply, and conditional on a reply I don’t promise an effortful one. But I do think you should feel able to do that.
Something I wanted to say was: in Shekinah’s followup post, she does use the word rape to describe the experience. For example, she says explicitly “This incident of sexual assault meets the federal definition of “rape”″. And in reply to a commenter saying “What you’re describing is unambiguously rape”, she says “I straightforwardly agree”.
I was hesitant to say this initially, because although it’s already linked in this comment section, I didn’t know for sure if Alex had read it. If he had not, then by saying the above, I’d essentially be directing a rapist’s attention back towards his victim, which seems like a bad thing to do in general. I have since been in communication with Shekinah, and she has given me the okay to say it.
She also tells me that in private conversation with Alex, before he blocked her, she made him aware that she considers it rape. She has given me the okay to share this, too.
(And obviously you get to defend yourself on the first question too. I’m not having that conversation in public …)
Yeah I am also very pessimistic about having the core argument about sexual assault on the public internet so I agree with not trying to resolve that part right here.
Critiquing your non-linking was simply not the point of that flag. The structure of the main thing I was going for was: “you provide explanation A for observation X. But B would also explain X.” And the reason I was saying this was something like: it’s easy to see an explanation, check that it makes sense/is consistent with the available evidence, and then assume it’s true. I think we more reliably arrive at true conclusions if we keep in mind that there are other possible explanations, and pointing out another possible explanation helps with that.
Got it! Sorry! I really thought you were directly critiquing my non-linking to Shekinah’s post. I think I read your comment in the midst of feeling wrongfully accused about stuff and didn’t read as carefully as I should have.
Ok so yeah I really agree about keeping in mind that there are other possible explanations, and the value of that for not over-weighting the first plausible explanation found.
It’s hard though. In this particular case you might point out an alternative explanation for my actions, and I might respond “yeah but I remember reasoning in such and such a way”. That could be introduction of new evidence, too.
Yet memories about intentions and mental states quickly become extremely fuzzy. Sometimes it’s better to go based on concrete actions taken.
Probably not super interested
I won’t expand on (2) or (3) for now then. Just noting this for readers who are evaluating my helpfulness/unhelpfulness on this thread (which I support readers doing btw!). Sorry it was such a long time between comments. I may not have come back at all if you hadn’t pointed out my long absence, so thank you for doing that.
A fourth thing I want to flag is that Alex said two weeks ago he was intending to reply more, and has not done so. Which means he hasn’t replied to any of the things I wanted to flag. The one thing he replied to was basically an aside, separate from the main point of “you’ve explained your observation, but here’s another possible explanation for it”.
I want to flag this for the same reason as I wanted to flag the others. It seems to me that Alex’s comments have a substantial amount of the “it’s hard to read this and stay sane” thing.
To explain this flag in more detail: I think that if a person reads this discussion and doesn’t track carefully, they might see that: “Alex replied to something philh said. He gave a different explanation for his behaviour than philh suggested, and then followed up in more detail. His explanation seems reasonable.” And they might lose sight of: “but the thing Alex replied to was an aside. The main point of that flag is still open, and so are the other flags.”
And this person might see: “Alex appears cooperative and non-defensive here, and has said he’ll reply further.” And they might think: “there’s no need to reach any conclusions now, I can wait until I know more”. And if they notice that Alex didn’t reply further: “oh, well, maybe he just forgot, or got busy, or....” And they might simply stop thinking about it, and fail to reach any conclusions.
I don’t claim to know what’s happening inside Alex’s head. But it does seem to me that his writings have these effects.
It’s possible this is a fairly normal level of “hard to read and stay sane”? I may only be picking up on it because he accused Shekinah’s original letter of doing the thing, and that primed me to look out for it, or something. This doesn’t feel like it’s the case to me, but it might be.
Even if that is the case, it seems worthwhile to point out these effects explicitly.
I don’t want to make this mistake myself. It’s important not to jump to premature conclusions, but it’s also important to be able to reach conclusions eventually. I’ve now reread the original letter, along with this comment thread and Shekinah’s follow up.
There’s no obvious reason for me to share my conclusions. I have no relationship to any people or organizations involved here. But given my previous comments, especially the preamble to my first one… it feels like some kind of failure mode for me not to share them. Like I’m saying “here is how we do things” and then not caring whether we actually do the things. So with that in mind:
I now believe we’re in substantially this world. Alex raped Shekinah. OAK/MA attempted to cover this up. Shekinah’s original letter made this much clear. Alex is some combination of lying and delusional about the situation.
I don’t know all the details, but I don’t expect those particular conclusions would change if I did.
Having no connection to this situation, my sense is that there’s nothing particular I should be doing with these conclusions. Alex is unwelcome at any events that I run, but since we live on different continents he was unlikely to anyway.
Well no I definitely did not rape Shekinah. I don’t think even she accuses me of that in her post.
It’s been quite a difficult few weeks at this end, which is why I haven’t replied more to your comment. I see the following points in your comment:
The paragraph that goes “So firstly I want to flag that this observation is consistent with the world you assert… But it’s also consistent with a different world, where those things are straightforwardly revealing of failures on the part of yourself and/or Monastic Academy” where you critique my non-linking to Shekinah’s medium post
The part where you critique my talking about “this darkness that lies at the heart of various rationalist orgs” in response to shminux’s post
The part that goes “I want to flag that shminux seemed to make several criticisms …” where you mention that I didn’t respond to all of shminux’s points
I believe I have responded to (1). Given that you’ve apparently decided that I’m definitely a rapist (“I now believe we’re in substantially this world. Alex raped Shekinah.”), are you interested in further dialog on (2) or (3), and are there any further points that I’ve missed?
Recall that the description in the original letter was:
The thing Shekinah describes here is rape, legally and ethically, whether she uses the word or not.
There is more I’d like to say here. There are questions that I don’t really know how to navigate, around respecting Shekinah’s agency and privacy and right to self-definition. But having that conversation with Alex seems disrespectful. So anyone who isn’t Alex is welcome to PM me for further thoughts.
You have not. In a previous comment I pointed out that you responded to an aside, in ways that made it easy for someone not paying attention to think you had responded to (1).
Critiquing your non-linking was simply not the point of that flag. The structure of the main thing I was going for was: “you provide explanation A for observation X. But B would also explain X.” And the reason I was saying this was something like: it’s easy to see an explanation, check that it makes sense/is consistent with the available evidence, and then assume it’s true. I think we more reliably arrive at true conclusions if we keep in mind that there are other possible explanations, and pointing out another possible explanation helps with that.
I do think you’re a rapist, but “definitely” is coming out of nowhere here.
Probably not super interested.
But, to be clear… this is only partly because I think you’re a rapist? It’s also because this is a frustrating conversation for me even completely ignoring that.
I said, early on, that I wasn’t directly talking about the accusations. That was true, and for the most part it’s still true. I have now directly spoken about the accusations. But none of the things I flagged were directly about them; and the things I flagged are not primarily why I believe them.
But like, I specifically said that you didn’t address point (1). And then you said you thought you’d addressed it, without even acknowledging that I said you hadn’t. So...
...combine that with the multiple other ways, in this thread, that I’ve pointed out where I think you’ve essentially “missed the point”, zero of which you’ve replied to...
...I really don’t see this being a productive conversation? Especially not for the amount of effort it’s taking.
And then there’s the fact that, yeah, I think you’re a rapist and I feel kinda weird having a semi-polite conversation with you on what’s kind of a question of procedural norms? Especially in this particular comment thread.
All that said: I do think the questions “is Alex a rapist” and “are Alex’s comments bad in the ways I think they are” are different questions. You get to defend yourself on the second even if you’re guilty on the first.
(And obviously you get to defend yourself on the first question too. I’m not having that conversation in public, but I’d be potentially open to a private conversation through a mediator we both trust, if you happen to want that.)
So like, if you think your comments are not bad in the ways I think they’re bad, and you want to put in the effort to defend them… I don’t promise a reply, and conditional on a reply I don’t promise an effortful one. But I do think you should feel able to do that.
Something I wanted to say was: in Shekinah’s followup post, she does use the word rape to describe the experience. For example, she says explicitly “This incident of sexual assault meets the federal definition of “rape”″. And in reply to a commenter saying “What you’re describing is unambiguously rape”, she says “I straightforwardly agree”.
I was hesitant to say this initially, because although it’s already linked in this comment section, I didn’t know for sure if Alex had read it. If he had not, then by saying the above, I’d essentially be directing a rapist’s attention back towards his victim, which seems like a bad thing to do in general. I have since been in communication with Shekinah, and she has given me the okay to say it.
She also tells me that in private conversation with Alex, before he blocked her, she made him aware that she considers it rape. She has given me the okay to share this, too.
Yeah I am also very pessimistic about having the core argument about sexual assault on the public internet so I agree with not trying to resolve that part right here.
Got it! Sorry! I really thought you were directly critiquing my non-linking to Shekinah’s post. I think I read your comment in the midst of feeling wrongfully accused about stuff and didn’t read as carefully as I should have.
Ok so yeah I really agree about keeping in mind that there are other possible explanations, and the value of that for not over-weighting the first plausible explanation found.
It’s hard though. In this particular case you might point out an alternative explanation for my actions, and I might respond “yeah but I remember reasoning in such and such a way”. That could be introduction of new evidence, too.
Yet memories about intentions and mental states quickly become extremely fuzzy. Sometimes it’s better to go based on concrete actions taken.
I won’t expand on (2) or (3) for now then. Just noting this for readers who are evaluating my helpfulness/unhelpfulness on this thread (which I support readers doing btw!). Sorry it was such a long time between comments. I may not have come back at all if you hadn’t pointed out my long absence, so thank you for doing that.