FYI, while I worked at a grocery store as a clerk, janitor and sometimes baker, I...
wrote multiple songs about it (always a bit ironic and self-deprecating but not entirely so, and some functioned as pseudo-anthems).
had a lot of fun talking to customers, and talked to like 1-2 orders of magnitude more of them than I would have talked to random strangers.
got a lot of physical exercise by default.
In my case I also had other longterm goals and aptitudes that made me not want to work there forever, but ever since then I’ve considered it surprisingly hard to beat “have a part time job that involves talking to customers and a lot of physical labor”, as a way to make sure a lot of basic needs are met at once, including certain kinds of tribal resonance.
(Up until starting work at LessWrong, I think I was generally less happy, or approximately as happy, at the programming jobs I worked at. I was also happier at other jobs when I intentionally shifted into “find meaning in the situation” stance)
This is largely because I have a property of “able to make meaning wherever I go”, which has pluses and minuses. I also did art and stuff that provides a lot of meaning, but I think at the time the meaning I got from my grocery clerk job to be… I dunno ranging from 10-60% of the meaning I was getting at a given time, depending on what other projects I had going on.
So if you got the same amount of exercise and talked to the same amount of people as you did working at the grocery store, but you did it not at the grocery store, do you think you would have gotten less meaning, more meaning, or about the same meaning? My expectation is about the same, and if correct that implies the meaning gained from being employed by the grocery store is about zero.
I assert that this:
This is largely because I have a property of “able to make meaning wherever I go”, which has pluses and minuses.
is a default trait of humans. The meaning almost invariably comes from actions and experiences (like exercise and talking to people). The reason that people attribute meaning to having a job is because every systematic generator of actions and experiences has been converted to an employment relationship, or died. Employment doesn’t cause meaning, in general—it is just the dominant context in which it occurs. I think disentangling these things is important for thinking about this and similar problems (like automation).
Another counterpoint to the McDonald’s/Walmart example I used above might be people who are invested in the status that comes from working someplace prestigious, like Apple or Google, or anyone who is towards the top of their profession. Then people would derive meaning by the mere fact of the employment relationship. But I also think that such meaning is not threatened by making employment optional, because such people will simply choose to remain employed.
FYI, while I worked at a grocery store as a clerk, janitor and sometimes baker, I...
wrote multiple songs about it (always a bit ironic and self-deprecating but not entirely so, and some functioned as pseudo-anthems).
had a lot of fun talking to customers, and talked to like 1-2 orders of magnitude more of them than I would have talked to random strangers.
got a lot of physical exercise by default.
In my case I also had other longterm goals and aptitudes that made me not want to work there forever, but ever since then I’ve considered it surprisingly hard to beat “have a part time job that involves talking to customers and a lot of physical labor”, as a way to make sure a lot of basic needs are met at once, including certain kinds of tribal resonance.
(Up until starting work at LessWrong, I think I was generally less happy, or approximately as happy, at the programming jobs I worked at. I was also happier at other jobs when I intentionally shifted into “find meaning in the situation” stance)
This is largely because I have a property of “able to make meaning wherever I go”, which has pluses and minuses. I also did art and stuff that provides a lot of meaning, but I think at the time the meaning I got from my grocery clerk job to be… I dunno ranging from 10-60% of the meaning I was getting at a given time, depending on what other projects I had going on.
So if you got the same amount of exercise and talked to the same amount of people as you did working at the grocery store, but you did it not at the grocery store, do you think you would have gotten less meaning, more meaning, or about the same meaning? My expectation is about the same, and if correct that implies the meaning gained from being employed by the grocery store is about zero.
I assert that this:
is a default trait of humans. The meaning almost invariably comes from actions and experiences (like exercise and talking to people). The reason that people attribute meaning to having a job is because every systematic generator of actions and experiences has been converted to an employment relationship, or died. Employment doesn’t cause meaning, in general—it is just the dominant context in which it occurs. I think disentangling these things is important for thinking about this and similar problems (like automation).
Another counterpoint to the McDonald’s/Walmart example I used above might be people who are invested in the status that comes from working someplace prestigious, like Apple or Google, or anyone who is towards the top of their profession. Then people would derive meaning by the mere fact of the employment relationship. But I also think that such meaning is not threatened by making employment optional, because such people will simply choose to remain employed.