I downvoted those comments because they sucked.
specifics? or just ad-hominem attacks against a filthy blue?
They were wrong in systematic ways indicative of a killed mind.
more ad-hominems from a dazed fool
People who err on the side of shutting down discussion and debate are commonly known as authoritarian in nature.
Just look at that snippet. The first sentence is awkwardly worded such that I can’t tell whether he’s committing the bandwagon fallacy, the fallacy of appeal to nature and arguing by definition, or the bandwagon fallacy and the fundamental attribution error.
Seems pretty clear to me that there’s an honest point being made. Let’s analyze your allegations of bias.
The bandwagon fallacy: You labeled the comment as a possible “bandwagon fallacy” or “appeal to popularity of an idea, so as to avoid the merits of the idea.” (Wikipedia defines this fallacy as a mixture of “red herring” which distracts from the point under discussion, and also “genetic fallacy” origins of the idea are referred to and argued against, rather than the idea itself.) In order for this to be the case, he’d need to be trying to unite those on lesswrong against those who possess an authoritarian philosophy, simply because authoritarians are unpopular (not because something in the common authoritarian method is fallacious). However, that would mean that the poster would not have a point that “the tactic of silencing debate” is itself an authoritarian tactic, the fallacy of “the appeal to force.” (Appeals to force are the worst form of argumentational fallacy—the drowning out legitimate criticism with noise.) If there are those who now dispute that appeals to force are not authoritarian, or that the karma diminishing of voting rights, etc. are not “shutting down discussion” and therefore indicative of authoritarian philosophy, or at least authoritarian behavior, then I don’t know what can be said to offer rational evidence here.
the fallacy of appeal to nature and arguing by definition,
Authoritarian in nature should clearly be shortened to “authoritarian,” period. Nowhere is the appeal to nature indicated by an honest reading of the above quote. The nature of the tactic “shutting down discussion and debate” is authoritarian. By definition, it is. Look up the word authoritarian, if you don’t know what it means. At http://www.lp.org there’s a link to a political quiz that indicates it’s the philosophy that is antithetical to libertarianism. It would be proper to reason that authoritarians have an indefensible view of reality, and that that viewpoint relies on shutting down debate—the idea cluster of “authoritarianism” doesn’t make claims about the legitimacy of the authority. The “idea cluster” of authoritarianism is rich with evidence that illegitimate authorities frequently silence debate when they don’t have a rational leg to stand on. I don’t think that this should be a stretch for most rational people to understand. “Silencing debate” is a part of the authoritarian “cluster of facts” in reality. http://lesswrong.com/lw/nz/arguing_by_definition/ --If I were to argue that “because authoritarians are evil, by definition, I should be allowed to say whatever I want” then I’d be arguing against authoritarians, but this time I’d be arguing by definition, assuming an evil for which I’d given no evidence except the definition. Here, the poster references “the evil” or “the wrong” as “the shutting down of debate” and associates it with a popularly-understood philosophy, known as authoritarianism. I’m assuming that most Lesswrongers have seen an example of someone’s microphone being turned off in a political debate, or perhaps Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reilly, turning off someone’s video feed just as they were destroying his arguments in a well-reasoned manner. (This is a commonly-understood “fact cluster” in reality. In fact, the entire North Korean authoritarian regime is founded on the consistent application of this practice: censorship, silencing of criticism, silencing of potential critics.)
Now, clearly, authoritarians without power are nowhere near as scary as authoritarians with power. But the very fact that they attempt similarly dishonest tactics to win adherents to their position should indicate that they have no respect for those they are attempting to convince.
So, the poster decries attempts to silence debate, and thereby decries attempts to silence appeals to objective measures of value. Also, declares free speech absolutism to be of high value to himself (and himself only). In doing so, he appeals to consensus, because consensus confers political victory, and determines whether there’s a place for his value structures—backed up with argument and evidence—on this board.
Fundamental attribution error: are there “people who err on the side of shutting down discussion” so they don’t have to address a favorable interpretation of someone else’s legitimate position? Yeah, there are, and they can broadly be referred to as “authoritarians.” Keep in mind that he didn’t name anyone here. He just posited the existence of bellicose and belittling authoritarians like yourself. Now, it’s possible he’s wrong, and every person legitimately interpreted his position as false, and it is false (or otherwise erroneous) in reality. In order for that to be true, then it’s possible all such judges of his interpretation are also making the “fundamental attribution error,” which posits an unknowable knowledge of others’ motivations based on an incorrect interpretation of their actions. Of course, you yourself could be making the fundamental attribution error, without comprehension of his truly greater understanding, since you, yourself, are actually an authoritarian. In order for any questions about fundamental attribution error to be resolved, a third party needs to measure each of the parties in a quantifiable way that eliminates motive for bias. In the WIKIpedia example, the speeding driver has good reason to be speeding, yet all the other drivers attribute the speeding to wanton disregard for human life (without knowing that the driver is taking a calculated risk to save their passenger who is bleeding out, trying to get them to a hospital). The fundamental attribution bias can almost always be a legitimate interpretation of the events, based on the available information. The more information there is, the better the interpretation. Perhaps the poster has spent a lot of time interacting with authoritarian jerks, and observing their callous conformity. You fit the bill. Also, keep in mind that analysis of attribution is said to have created the whole field of sociology—meaning: sociologists try to attribute motives to observed actions. If that weren’t possible, then there would only be fundamental attribution error, there would be no sociology. Collective actions are often able to be correctly analyzed from behaviorism alone. In fact, when dealing with low-level thought (such as your own) behaviorism is a highly reliable indicator of proper attribution. John Douglas has caught hundreds of serial killers by properly attributing their behavior to predictable, low-level motives.
From wikipedia: “bias arises when the inference drawn is incorrect, e.g., dispositional inference when the actual cause is situational.” I suspect I’m correct in my attribution. Why not offer some evidence that I’m not correct? And what of the defense from sociopaths that their actions are always legitimate, and that others are simply trying to “tar and feather” them with the brush of sociopathy? Wouldn’t an authoritarian sociopath always respond as you have? (Generally, yes, they do.) I’m not saying you’re a sociopath. There might be other reasons why you’re a whimpering sycophant with low moral character. Or, you might genuinely believe that I’m mistaken in my attribution.
In order to test this out, let’s imagine that there’s a situation somewhere where a bunch of conformists down-vote an individualist because they are authoritarians who disagree with individual freedom, and the social norms of their group disfavor individualism. Such as in the case of “the unlikeliest cult,” as reported on this site.
The third sentence wraps the usual total failure to understand that policy debates should not appear one-sided within cringe-worthy phrases pretending the position advocated is nuanced and pragmatic.
So why shouldn’t a policy that’s “mind-killing” be attacked? There’s no valid reason why anyone should argue in favor of a position they disbelieve, simply to feign the appearance of “even handedness.” If this were legitimate, then holocaust survivors would have to qualify their denunciations of Nazism, perhaps by saying “Well, even if the Jews sometimes deserve to get killed, genocide was taking it a bit too far...” Absurd! Illegitimate arguments and policies should be eliminated, if they confer no benefit. If there are defenders of such bad ideas, then let them “man up” and argue their position with valid arguments, as the poster did.
preservation of information, and free speech absolutism, designed for ease of reading and information preservation.
OK, so the poster is redundant, at worst. Still, the points he made were valid, and you didn’t attack the merits of a single one of them. You called them names, and derided the arguer’s style, which unfortunately appears hurried.
Attack one “cringe-worthy phrase” or attack the position he made. Specifically. Unless you’re slinging nothing but pissy ad hominem attacks against a righteous libertarian. If that’s the case, feel free to help yourself to another shot so you can be less dazed, and we’ll talk about it when you’ve slept off your drunk.
Seems pretty clear to me that there’s an honest point being made. Let’s analyze your allegations of bias.
The bandwagon fallacy: You labeled the comment as a possible “bandwagon fallacy” or “appeal to popularity of an idea, so as to avoid the merits of the idea.” (Wikipedia defines this fallacy as a mixture of “red herring” which distracts from the point under discussion, and also “genetic fallacy” origins of the idea are referred to and argued against, rather than the idea itself.) In order for this to be the case, he’d need to be trying to unite those on lesswrong against those who possess an authoritarian philosophy, simply because authoritarians are unpopular (not because something in the common authoritarian method is fallacious). However, that would mean that the poster would not have a point that “the tactic of silencing debate” is itself an authoritarian tactic, the fallacy of “the appeal to force.” (Appeals to force are the worst form of argumentational fallacy—the drowning out legitimate criticism with noise.) If there are those who now dispute that appeals to force are not authoritarian, or that the karma diminishing of voting rights, etc. are not “shutting down discussion” and therefore indicative of authoritarian philosophy, or at least authoritarian behavior, then I don’t know what can be said to offer rational evidence here.
Authoritarian in nature should clearly be shortened to “authoritarian,” period. Nowhere is the appeal to nature indicated by an honest reading of the above quote. The nature of the tactic “shutting down discussion and debate” is authoritarian. By definition, it is. Look up the word authoritarian, if you don’t know what it means. At http://www.lp.org there’s a link to a political quiz that indicates it’s the philosophy that is antithetical to libertarianism. It would be proper to reason that authoritarians have an indefensible view of reality, and that that viewpoint relies on shutting down debate—the idea cluster of “authoritarianism” doesn’t make claims about the legitimacy of the authority. The “idea cluster” of authoritarianism is rich with evidence that illegitimate authorities frequently silence debate when they don’t have a rational leg to stand on. I don’t think that this should be a stretch for most rational people to understand. “Silencing debate” is a part of the authoritarian “cluster of facts” in reality. http://lesswrong.com/lw/nz/arguing_by_definition/ --If I were to argue that “because authoritarians are evil, by definition, I should be allowed to say whatever I want” then I’d be arguing against authoritarians, but this time I’d be arguing by definition, assuming an evil for which I’d given no evidence except the definition. Here, the poster references “the evil” or “the wrong” as “the shutting down of debate” and associates it with a popularly-understood philosophy, known as authoritarianism. I’m assuming that most Lesswrongers have seen an example of someone’s microphone being turned off in a political debate, or perhaps Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reilly, turning off someone’s video feed just as they were destroying his arguments in a well-reasoned manner. (This is a commonly-understood “fact cluster” in reality. In fact, the entire North Korean authoritarian regime is founded on the consistent application of this practice: censorship, silencing of criticism, silencing of potential critics.)
Now, clearly, authoritarians without power are nowhere near as scary as authoritarians with power. But the very fact that they attempt similarly dishonest tactics to win adherents to their position should indicate that they have no respect for those they are attempting to convince.
So, the poster decries attempts to silence debate, and thereby decries attempts to silence appeals to objective measures of value. Also, declares free speech absolutism to be of high value to himself (and himself only). In doing so, he appeals to consensus, because consensus confers political victory, and determines whether there’s a place for his value structures—backed up with argument and evidence—on this board.
Fundamental attribution error: are there “people who err on the side of shutting down discussion” so they don’t have to address a favorable interpretation of someone else’s legitimate position? Yeah, there are, and they can broadly be referred to as “authoritarians.” Keep in mind that he didn’t name anyone here. He just posited the existence of bellicose and belittling authoritarians like yourself. Now, it’s possible he’s wrong, and every person legitimately interpreted his position as false, and it is false (or otherwise erroneous) in reality. In order for that to be true, then it’s possible all such judges of his interpretation are also making the “fundamental attribution error,” which posits an unknowable knowledge of others’ motivations based on an incorrect interpretation of their actions. Of course, you yourself could be making the fundamental attribution error, without comprehension of his truly greater understanding, since you, yourself, are actually an authoritarian. In order for any questions about fundamental attribution error to be resolved, a third party needs to measure each of the parties in a quantifiable way that eliminates motive for bias. In the WIKIpedia example, the speeding driver has good reason to be speeding, yet all the other drivers attribute the speeding to wanton disregard for human life (without knowing that the driver is taking a calculated risk to save their passenger who is bleeding out, trying to get them to a hospital). The fundamental attribution bias can almost always be a legitimate interpretation of the events, based on the available information. The more information there is, the better the interpretation. Perhaps the poster has spent a lot of time interacting with authoritarian jerks, and observing their callous conformity. You fit the bill. Also, keep in mind that analysis of attribution is said to have created the whole field of sociology—meaning: sociologists try to attribute motives to observed actions. If that weren’t possible, then there would only be fundamental attribution error, there would be no sociology. Collective actions are often able to be correctly analyzed from behaviorism alone. In fact, when dealing with low-level thought (such as your own) behaviorism is a highly reliable indicator of proper attribution. John Douglas has caught hundreds of serial killers by properly attributing their behavior to predictable, low-level motives.
From wikipedia: “bias arises when the inference drawn is incorrect, e.g., dispositional inference when the actual cause is situational.” I suspect I’m correct in my attribution. Why not offer some evidence that I’m not correct? And what of the defense from sociopaths that their actions are always legitimate, and that others are simply trying to “tar and feather” them with the brush of sociopathy? Wouldn’t an authoritarian sociopath always respond as you have? (Generally, yes, they do.) I’m not saying you’re a sociopath. There might be other reasons why you’re a whimpering sycophant with low moral character. Or, you might genuinely believe that I’m mistaken in my attribution.
In order to test this out, let’s imagine that there’s a situation somewhere where a bunch of conformists down-vote an individualist because they are authoritarians who disagree with individual freedom, and the social norms of their group disfavor individualism. Such as in the case of “the unlikeliest cult,” as reported on this site.
So why shouldn’t a policy that’s “mind-killing” be attacked? There’s no valid reason why anyone should argue in favor of a position they disbelieve, simply to feign the appearance of “even handedness.” If this were legitimate, then holocaust survivors would have to qualify their denunciations of Nazism, perhaps by saying “Well, even if the Jews sometimes deserve to get killed, genocide was taking it a bit too far...” Absurd! Illegitimate arguments and policies should be eliminated, if they confer no benefit. If there are defenders of such bad ideas, then let them “man up” and argue their position with valid arguments, as the poster did.
OK, so the poster is redundant, at worst. Still, the points he made were valid, and you didn’t attack the merits of a single one of them. You called them names, and derided the arguer’s style, which unfortunately appears hurried.
Attack one “cringe-worthy phrase” or attack the position he made. Specifically. Unless you’re slinging nothing but pissy ad hominem attacks against a righteous libertarian. If that’s the case, feel free to help yourself to another shot so you can be less dazed, and we’ll talk about it when you’ve slept off your drunk.