Then IFoR position labels some animal behaviour ethical, for no very strong reason, and then assumes that it translates into human interactions,
The indexicality of the IFoR solution is the real problem, “Predation is a moral value for predators” translates to “Mugging is a moral value for muggers”....but it’s not so great for the victim/prey....and the function of ethics in human societies is to decide which behaviours get approved forbidden. So is mugging allowed?
Humans are animals affected by natural selection, wherefore no translation from animals to humans is necessary or even possible.
An individual is neither a predator nor a mugger by default. An individual is a predator or a mugger because of its traits and behaviour. Probably the mugger does not value the mugging itself. Humans who value the survival of their own behavioural genes would in all probability put into practice and enforce laws against mugging, since allowing mugging would risk adversely affecting not only each individual herself, but also other humans who to a large extent are carriers of the same behavioural genes as this individual. Please see my comment to gjm, where I mention “fitnessist contractarianism”, which, by the way, is universalizable.
Ethics per se does not have any function. Teaching ethics does. Discussing ethics does. Rational people do those things for a purpose. They do them as a means to an end. The end is given by ethics. Ethics gives you the purpose, but is not the purpose, or even a means to the purpose. But discussing ethics is a means to the purpose.
Humans are animals affected by natural selection, wherefore no translation from animals to humans is necessary or even possible.
“Morality” centrally refers to a set of beliefs and practices only attested in humans, so any attempts to found morality in the behaviour of non human animals requires a translation stage.
An individual is neither a predator nor a mugger by default. An individual is a predator or a mugger because of its traits and behaviour.
I don’t see the relevance,
Probably the mugger does not value the mugging itself.
No, they probably value something that can be cashed out in fitness promoting terms, like continued survival, or enhanced attractiveness based on resources. Taken individualistically fitnessism leads to counterintuituve conclusions...
Humans who value the survival of their own behavioural genes would in all probability put into practice and enforce laws against mugging, since allowing mugging would risk adversely affecting not only each individual herself, but also other humans who to a large extent are carriers of the same behavioural genes as this individual. Please see my comment to gjm, where I mention “fitnessist contractarianism”, which, by the way, is universalizable.
… hence fitnessist Contractarianism …. but then the question is: why do you need the fitness competent, when you have the contraction component?
Ethics per se does not have any function.
I find that hard to understand. The practices of ethics reduces wasteful conflict, and allows people to satisfy their preferences.
And recognising that ethics fulfils role allows you to understand almost everything about it, providing you can alsomrid yourself of the assumption that it needs to correspond to something.
“Morality” centrally refers to a set of beliefs and practices only attested in humans, …
Morality does also apply to non-human organisms, for example close human relatives such as chimpanzees and why not alien life on other planets or future successors to humans?
… so any attempts to found morality in the behaviour of non human animals requires a translation stage.
Ethical fitnessism is not founded on the behaviour of non-human organisms. Please see the definition of ethical fitnessism in my original comment to DeVliegendeHollander.
No, they probably value something that can be cashed out in fitness promoting terms, like continued survival, or enhanced attractiveness based on resources.
Exactly!
Ethical fitnessism is more intuitive than any other established moral theory, since it is practiced more, not only by other animals, but by humans to, not only in prehistoric times, but in modern times as well.
You wonder why we need the fitness component, when we already have the contract component.
All contractarianism is necessarily based on self-interest. Traditional contractarianism is based on the self-interest of living humans. That is why it is criticised for disregarding future human generations and even other animals. Fitnessist contractarianism is based on the Darwinian self-interest, which is the intrinsic value of ethical fitnessism. Therefore it does not disregard future generations.
Ethics per se does not have any function.
I find that hard to understand. The practices of ethics reduces wasteful conflict, and allows people to satisfy their preferences.
Of course the practice of ethics has a function! But ethics per se does not; it gives a purpose.
Morality” centrally refers to a set of beliefs and practices only attested in humans,
...Morality does also apply to non-human organisms, for example close human relatives such as chimpanzees and why not alien life on other planets or future successors to humans?
A) centrally=/= only.
B) You are blurring the distinction between moral agents and moral patients.
Ethical fitnessism is not founded on the behaviour of non-human organisms.
So why did you bring in the example of the predator?
No, [muggers] probably value something that can be cashed out in fitness promoting terms, like continued survival, or enhanced attractiveness based on resources.
Exactly!Ethical fitnessism is more intuitive than any other established moral theory, since it is practiced more, not only by other animals, but by humans to, not only in prehistoric times, but in modern times as well.
Well, you can certain get a more widely practiced morality out of defining mugging as moral...but the cost is defining mugging as moral
All contractarianism is necessarily based on self-interest.
For some value of self interest. Switching from a near mode, low time preference notion of morality, to a far mode, high time preference form of self interest is a step forward in morality.
Traditional contractarianism is based on the self-interest of living humans. That is why it is criticised for disregarding future human generations
I don’t see that. Concern for future generations is a widespread value, so it is bound to be written into contracts.
and even other animals.
Fitnessist contractarianism is based on the Darwinian self-interest, which is the intrinsic value of ethical fitnessism. Therefore it does not disregard future generations.
And other animals?
Of course the practice of ethics has a function! But ethics per se does not.
So why did you bring in the example of the predator?
The example of the predator and the quarry illustrates the nature and origin of self-interest and of conflict between incompatible moral values. Above all, it illustrates the indexicality of ethics.
Well, you can [certainly] get a more widely practiced morality out of defining mugging as moral...but the cost is defining mugging as moral
We are certainly not defining mugging as moral. The idea is not to make your morals as practised as possible, but to make morals realistic, adapted and possible to practice. Ethical fitnessism is well practiced and gives guidance in all situations. Hedonistic utilitarianism, for instance, suffers greatly from being practically impossible to practice.
And other animals?
Since humans share behavioural genes with other animals they are also taken into consideration in fitnessist contractarianism, unlike the case in traditional contractarianism.
The issue of “ethics per se” is by no means especially complicated nor unimportant. There flourishes a common misunderstanding that the function of ethics is to make people behave better, that ethics serves a purpose. On the contrary, the case is that ethics gives you the meaning of ‘better’. Ethics gives the purpose. When you have worked out what the purpose is, and what better means, you can work out how you want people to behave. This distinction is crucial because many people never seem to have actually understood the normative ethical problem. How ought I to behave? How ought I to behave when I am all alone? How ought I to behave if I so am the last human alive? Not “What may I do?”, but what ought I to do? Instead they think that ethics only is concerned with which rules society should enforce and which moral indoctrination people should be subjected to. This reconnects to Sam Harris and his Moral Landscape Challenge. Harris does not see the intrinsic, only the instrumental. But please, everything is not the decision method; the rightness criterion is also to be considered. In this discussion thread contributors seem to take ethics in itself for granted and to be focused on the social and universalizable function of ethics. But please, hold your horses! How did we just get passed the first and central problem? Not only Sam Harris writes as if ethics per se is to be neglected and by-passed.
The example of the predator and the quarry illustrates the nature and origin of self-interest and of conflict between incompatible moral values. Above all, it illustrates the indexicality of ethics
The indexicality of ethics isnt an ucontentious fact: rather, its a contentious implication of fitnessism, which is itself contentious. Indeed, some would reject fitnessism over the indexicality issue.
We are certainly not defining mugging as moral.
Although it is fitness-enhancing enough...
The idea is not to make your morals as practised as possible, but to make morals realistic, adapted and possible to practice. Ethical fitnessism is well practiced and gives guidance
.....but how does it guide, if you can refuse to accept fitness-enhancing acts as moral?
There flourishes a common misunderstanding that the function of ethics is to make people behave better, that ethics serves a purpose. On the contrary, the case is that ethics gives you the meaning of ‘better’.
Is “better” a vacuum needing to be filled? I can defined better in the most obvious way, in terms of preferences, and the purpose of ethics in terms of maximising preferences.
Then IFoR position labels some animal behaviour ethical, for no very strong reason, and then assumes that it translates into human interactions,
The indexicality of the IFoR solution is the real problem, “Predation is a moral value for predators” translates to “Mugging is a moral value for muggers”....but it’s not so great for the victim/prey....and the function of ethics in human societies is to decide which behaviours get approved forbidden. So is mugging allowed?
Humans are animals affected by natural selection, wherefore no translation from animals to humans is necessary or even possible.
An individual is neither a predator nor a mugger by default. An individual is a predator or a mugger because of its traits and behaviour. Probably the mugger does not value the mugging itself. Humans who value the survival of their own behavioural genes would in all probability put into practice and enforce laws against mugging, since allowing mugging would risk adversely affecting not only each individual herself, but also other humans who to a large extent are carriers of the same behavioural genes as this individual. Please see my comment to gjm, where I mention “fitnessist contractarianism”, which, by the way, is universalizable.
Ethics per se does not have any function. Teaching ethics does. Discussing ethics does. Rational people do those things for a purpose. They do them as a means to an end. The end is given by ethics. Ethics gives you the purpose, but is not the purpose, or even a means to the purpose. But discussing ethics is a means to the purpose.
“Morality” centrally refers to a set of beliefs and practices only attested in humans, so any attempts to found morality in the behaviour of non human animals requires a translation stage.
I don’t see the relevance,
No, they probably value something that can be cashed out in fitness promoting terms, like continued survival, or enhanced attractiveness based on resources. Taken individualistically fitnessism leads to counterintuituve conclusions...
… hence fitnessist Contractarianism …. but then the question is: why do you need the fitness competent, when you have the contraction component?
I find that hard to understand. The practices of ethics reduces wasteful conflict, and allows people to satisfy their preferences.
And recognising that ethics fulfils role allows you to understand almost everything about it, providing you can alsomrid yourself of the assumption that it needs to correspond to something.
Morality does also apply to non-human organisms, for example close human relatives such as chimpanzees and why not alien life on other planets or future successors to humans?
Ethical fitnessism is not founded on the behaviour of non-human organisms. Please see the definition of ethical fitnessism in my original comment to DeVliegendeHollander.
Exactly!
Ethical fitnessism is more intuitive than any other established moral theory, since it is practiced more, not only by other animals, but by humans to, not only in prehistoric times, but in modern times as well.
You wonder why we need the fitness component, when we already have the contract component.
All contractarianism is necessarily based on self-interest. Traditional contractarianism is based on the self-interest of living humans. That is why it is criticised for disregarding future human generations and even other animals. Fitnessist contractarianism is based on the Darwinian self-interest, which is the intrinsic value of ethical fitnessism. Therefore it does not disregard future generations.
Of course the practice of ethics has a function! But ethics per se does not; it gives a purpose.
A) centrally=/= only.
B) You are blurring the distinction between moral agents and moral patients.
So why did you bring in the example of the predator?
Well, you can certain get a more widely practiced morality out of defining mugging as moral...but the cost is defining mugging as moral
For some value of self interest. Switching from a near mode, low time preference notion of morality, to a far mode, high time preference form of self interest is a step forward in morality.
I don’t see that. Concern for future generations is a widespread value, so it is bound to be written into contracts.
And other animals?
I don’t see what you mean by ethics per se,
The example of the predator and the quarry illustrates the nature and origin of self-interest and of conflict between incompatible moral values. Above all, it illustrates the indexicality of ethics.
We are certainly not defining mugging as moral. The idea is not to make your morals as practised as possible, but to make morals realistic, adapted and possible to practice. Ethical fitnessism is well practiced and gives guidance in all situations. Hedonistic utilitarianism, for instance, suffers greatly from being practically impossible to practice.
Since humans share behavioural genes with other animals they are also taken into consideration in fitnessist contractarianism, unlike the case in traditional contractarianism.
The issue of “ethics per se” is by no means especially complicated nor unimportant. There flourishes a common misunderstanding that the function of ethics is to make people behave better, that ethics serves a purpose. On the contrary, the case is that ethics gives you the meaning of ‘better’. Ethics gives the purpose. When you have worked out what the purpose is, and what better means, you can work out how you want people to behave. This distinction is crucial because many people never seem to have actually understood the normative ethical problem. How ought I to behave? How ought I to behave when I am all alone? How ought I to behave if I so am the last human alive? Not “What may I do?”, but what ought I to do? Instead they think that ethics only is concerned with which rules society should enforce and which moral indoctrination people should be subjected to. This reconnects to Sam Harris and his Moral Landscape Challenge. Harris does not see the intrinsic, only the instrumental. But please, everything is not the decision method; the rightness criterion is also to be considered. In this discussion thread contributors seem to take ethics in itself for granted and to be focused on the social and universalizable function of ethics. But please, hold your horses! How did we just get passed the first and central problem? Not only Sam Harris writes as if ethics per se is to be neglected and by-passed.
The indexicality of ethics isnt an ucontentious fact: rather, its a contentious implication of fitnessism, which is itself contentious. Indeed, some would reject fitnessism over the indexicality issue.
Although it is fitness-enhancing enough...
.....but how does it guide, if you can refuse to accept fitness-enhancing acts as moral?
Is “better” a vacuum needing to be filled? I can defined better in the most obvious way, in terms of preferences, and the purpose of ethics in terms of maximising preferences.