the hypothesis that my interlocutor thought everyone would derive some benefit from getting to punch others with impunity sometimes was a reasonable hypothesis to generate.
So I think, from your epistemic state, that this is a plausible interpretation of what’s going on (esp. because neither Duncan nor anyone else has actually given much account here of why Punch Bug might be fun). But yes, I’m pretty confident I understand what you’re saying here, and think you’re missing important stuff. (At the very least,enjoying violence isn’t the only thing going on)
Some things that may or may not be going on with Punch Bug (I haven’t actually formed a clear opinion on this and it is a a bit confusing so I’m sympathetic here) include:
competition – sports are often filled with pain, but the enjoyment is largely about physicality, competition, overcoming difficult obstacles. Something like boxing is explicitly about punching people, and I’m sure “enjoying punching” is part of that, but I bet the sort of person who likes that cares more about proving themselves against a live opponent.
part of the whole point here is that pain can be calibrated, and if you’re calibrated to find a moderate punch to be something you can shrug off, that changes the nature of how you perceive it. Compare with verbal fencing – some people enjoy trading barbs/quips/trashtalk. And one thing that can happen with a clever insult is that people feel genuinely hurt/ashamed by it, but another thing that happen is that everyone involved is thinking something more like “ah, what clever competitive art we are engaging with.”
I think part of the thing with roughhousing in general is just getting to touch other humans. (and if you’re calibrated to the pain of a punch a la above, then you’re mostly getting a particular flavor of the positive-aspects of that, rather than the negative.)
I’m not just worried about the emotional valence of violent sadist, but that those words, together, convey a clear(ish) connotation that goes beyond “person that enjoys inflicting pain.”
These all seem like things that would strongly favor games like “sometimes roughhouse with your friends with punchback allowed and sensitivity over repeated interactions to how people are feeling about the whole thing” over games like “punchbug”. I’m justified in deprecating hypotheses somewhat that would predict different things than the ones that actually happened.
I’m definitely not claiming to not be missing important stuff. A more clearly grounded query would have been way better, of course, but as it turned out, generating more hypotheses about the appeal of punchbug would have been entirely beside the point, as the problem turned out to be that SilentCal thought I meant something much narrower by “asymmetric,” which excluded formally symmetrical rules with disparate impact.
So I think, from your epistemic state, that this is a plausible interpretation of what’s going on (esp. because neither Duncan nor anyone else has actually given much account here of why Punch Bug might be fun). But yes, I’m pretty confident I understand what you’re saying here, and think you’re missing important stuff. (At the very least, enjoying violence isn’t the only thing going on)
Some things that may or may not be going on with Punch Bug (I haven’t actually formed a clear opinion on this and it is a a bit confusing so I’m sympathetic here) include:
competition – sports are often filled with pain, but the enjoyment is largely about physicality, competition, overcoming difficult obstacles. Something like boxing is explicitly about punching people, and I’m sure “enjoying punching” is part of that, but I bet the sort of person who likes that cares more about proving themselves against a live opponent.
part of the whole point here is that pain can be calibrated, and if you’re calibrated to find a moderate punch to be something you can shrug off, that changes the nature of how you perceive it. Compare with verbal fencing – some people enjoy trading barbs/quips/trashtalk. And one thing that can happen with a clever insult is that people feel genuinely hurt/ashamed by it, but another thing that happen is that everyone involved is thinking something more like “ah, what clever competitive art we are engaging with.”
I think part of the thing with roughhousing in general is just getting to touch other humans. (and if you’re calibrated to the pain of a punch a la above, then you’re mostly getting a particular flavor of the positive-aspects of that, rather than the negative.)
I’m not just worried about the emotional valence of violent sadist, but that those words, together, convey a clear(ish) connotation that goes beyond “person that enjoys inflicting pain.”
These all seem like things that would strongly favor games like “sometimes roughhouse with your friends with punchback allowed and sensitivity over repeated interactions to how people are feeling about the whole thing” over games like “punchbug”. I’m justified in deprecating hypotheses somewhat that would predict different things than the ones that actually happened.
I’m definitely not claiming to not be missing important stuff. A more clearly grounded query would have been way better, of course, but as it turned out, generating more hypotheses about the appeal of punchbug would have been entirely beside the point, as the problem turned out to be that SilentCal thought I meant something much narrower by “asymmetric,” which excluded formally symmetrical rules with disparate impact.