All these questions are not boredom or overpopulation – they are something like a protection from a new idea. Or protection against fear of death. Its like a Stockholm syndrome, where a victim take the side of a terrorist.
If people were really afraid about overpopulation, they should ban sex first.
You are right: they feel that something is amiss. The idea of immortality without an image of paradise is really boring. Becoming immortal without becoming God and without living in galactic size paradize is wrong and they feel it.
All these questions are not boredom or overpopulation – they are something like a protection from a new idea. Or protection against fear of death. Its like a Stockholm syndrome, where a victim take the side of a terrorist.
FWIW: This is part of the standard immortalist memetic immune system response. It’s stuff like this happening in my own head for decades that prevented me from really listening to people.
At the risk of being really annoying to you, here are a few related elements to point at what I mean:
I basically said that these counterarguments weren’t really about boredom or overpopulation. See the analogy with the partner nominally talking about groceries. So why say that?
It’s pretty important which new idea they’re encountering. It’s not a generic response. Most people don’t respond to first hearing the idea of blockchain with “But what if you get bored?”
The thing about protection against fear of death is an assumption. It’s a super duper common one in immortalist circles. Likewise with deathist arguments being about Stockholm Syndrome. It’s a clear hypothesis. But that’s not how it’s used. It’s not presented to stir curiosity and exploration of the deathist psyche. The default reason for saying things like this is to dismiss the deathist concerns as basically delusional. (Speaking from decades of personal experience of enacting this disrespect.)
If people were really afraid about overpopulation, they should ban sex first.
Well, if the single thing they cared about was overpopulation, then sure. The math checks out.
I think it’s a combination of (a) they don’t really care about overpopulation per se, (b) they’re bad at exponential reasoning, and (c) they care about a whole system of things that are all interconnected but typically don’t notice the system as a whole.
But that’s just my guess.
You are right: they feel that something is amiss. The idea of immortality without an image of paradise is really boring. Becoming immortal without becoming God and without living in galactic size paradize is wrong and they feel it.
Well…
Okay, so: If I could eliminate aging in my body as is, right now, I would.
I’m totally fine with not having an image of paradise that this leads me to. I’m fine with not clearly seeing how this makes me God. That’s fine.
I’m happy to live as this human for a few centuries. Wandering the Earth.
Even if I’m the only one.
I don’t intuit anything deeply wrong with that. Maybe I’m numb and stupid here. Maybe whatever that intuition others get was burned out of me by my immortalist family.
But my guess is, the deathist cringe isn’t to a lack of vision of paradise or of becoming God.
Like, another deathist counterargument goes along the lines of “But people I love will die. I’d have to deal with that again and again, forever.”
It’s curious how often this shows up when talking about ending aging for everyone. It doesn’t make logical sense given the thought experiment: those loved ones would have their aging cured too.
And yet.
So what’s up with that? If I had to hazard a guess, it’s that they’re carrying collective (and maybe personal) trauma from losing loved ones. The burden of the mortality of those who came before us across the aeons. And they just don’t know how to orient to that titanic burden.
I don’t think offering them a vision of Heaven would address that. What of the scar that Yehuda left? There’s a soul-rending agony and grief here to reconcile with. The engineering question is important too, but on its own it comes across like the stereotypical “man fixes women’s feelings” scenario.
I think this whole scenario is way more intricate and nuanced than immortalist narratives tend to allow for.
The fact that people are not interested in the immortalists’ staff is one of the greatest misteries. It is the black matter for transhumanism. Less people have signed for cryonics than was eaten by birds in Zoroastrism.
One way to explain it is Tanatos, built-in death drive. Human apoptosis. But on personal level humans try to survive.
Or fear of revolting against God’s will. Religious people are ok with immortality in afterlife, and they are not afraid that the paradise will be overpopulated or will be boring. The key difference is the idea of God? But we have superintelligence as its substitute.
Or, if we try to rationalize their argument in another way, they say: it is impossible to overstretch one parameter of the system to infinity, while other parameters are finite. Like if we get infinite lifespan, but the amount of fun is the same, the fun will be so narrowly distributed over eternity that there will be no fun at all in any given moment. The same about resources. This argument is at least reasonable, but could be objected.
I don’t intend to continue this exchange. Just so you know. I’ve walked this particular road plenty of times already and am just not interested anymore.
All these questions are not boredom or overpopulation – they are something like a protection from a new idea. Or protection against fear of death. Its like a Stockholm syndrome, where a victim take the side of a terrorist.
If people were really afraid about overpopulation, they should ban sex first.
You are right: they feel that something is amiss. The idea of immortality without an image of paradise is really boring. Becoming immortal without becoming God and without living in galactic size paradize is wrong and they feel it.
FWIW: This is part of the standard immortalist memetic immune system response. It’s stuff like this happening in my own head for decades that prevented me from really listening to people.
At the risk of being really annoying to you, here are a few related elements to point at what I mean:
I basically said that these counterarguments weren’t really about boredom or overpopulation. See the analogy with the partner nominally talking about groceries. So why say that?
It’s pretty important which new idea they’re encountering. It’s not a generic response. Most people don’t respond to first hearing the idea of blockchain with “But what if you get bored?”
The thing about protection against fear of death is an assumption. It’s a super duper common one in immortalist circles. Likewise with deathist arguments being about Stockholm Syndrome. It’s a clear hypothesis. But that’s not how it’s used. It’s not presented to stir curiosity and exploration of the deathist psyche. The default reason for saying things like this is to dismiss the deathist concerns as basically delusional. (Speaking from decades of personal experience of enacting this disrespect.)
Well, if the single thing they cared about was overpopulation, then sure. The math checks out.
I think it’s a combination of (a) they don’t really care about overpopulation per se, (b) they’re bad at exponential reasoning, and (c) they care about a whole system of things that are all interconnected but typically don’t notice the system as a whole.
But that’s just my guess.
Well…
Okay, so: If I could eliminate aging in my body as is, right now, I would.
I’m totally fine with not having an image of paradise that this leads me to. I’m fine with not clearly seeing how this makes me God. That’s fine.
I’m happy to live as this human for a few centuries. Wandering the Earth.
Even if I’m the only one.
I don’t intuit anything deeply wrong with that. Maybe I’m numb and stupid here. Maybe whatever that intuition others get was burned out of me by my immortalist family.
But my guess is, the deathist cringe isn’t to a lack of vision of paradise or of becoming God.
Like, another deathist counterargument goes along the lines of “But people I love will die. I’d have to deal with that again and again, forever.”
It’s curious how often this shows up when talking about ending aging for everyone. It doesn’t make logical sense given the thought experiment: those loved ones would have their aging cured too.
And yet.
So what’s up with that? If I had to hazard a guess, it’s that they’re carrying collective (and maybe personal) trauma from losing loved ones. The burden of the mortality of those who came before us across the aeons. And they just don’t know how to orient to that titanic burden.
I don’t think offering them a vision of Heaven would address that. What of the scar that Yehuda left? There’s a soul-rending agony and grief here to reconcile with. The engineering question is important too, but on its own it comes across like the stereotypical “man fixes women’s feelings” scenario.
I think this whole scenario is way more intricate and nuanced than immortalist narratives tend to allow for.
[edited]
Yes, I agree. You don’t.
I’m not available for arguing you into seeing it. If you can’t see it from what I’ve already said, then I’m not the one to show you.
The fact that people are not interested in the immortalists’ staff is one of the greatest misteries. It is the black matter for transhumanism. Less people have signed for cryonics than was eaten by birds in Zoroastrism.
One way to explain it is Tanatos, built-in death drive. Human apoptosis. But on personal level humans try to survive.
Or fear of revolting against God’s will. Religious people are ok with immortality in afterlife, and they are not afraid that the paradise will be overpopulated or will be boring. The key difference is the idea of God? But we have superintelligence as its substitute.
Or, if we try to rationalize their argument in another way, they say: it is impossible to overstretch one parameter of the system to infinity, while other parameters are finite. Like if we get infinite lifespan, but the amount of fun is the same, the fun will be so narrowly distributed over eternity that there will be no fun at all in any given moment. The same about resources. This argument is at least reasonable, but could be objected.
I don’t intend to continue this exchange. Just so you know. I’ve walked this particular road plenty of times already and am just not interested anymore.
But I sincerely wish you well on your journey.