You may not be able to make a horse drink, but you can still lead it to water rather than merely point out it’s thirsty. Teaching is a thing that people do with demonstrated beneficial results across a wide range of topics. Why would this be an exception?
I think you overestimate the extent to which many LW users comment to help others understand things, as opposed to (say) gain social status at their expense.
Be careful when defining the winner as someone other than the one currently sitting on a mound of utility.
Most lesswrong users at least profess to want to be above social status games, so calling people out on it increases expected comment quality and personal social status/karma, at least a little.
In the analogy, water represents the point of the quote (possibly as applied to CEV). You’re saying there is no point. I don’t understand what you’re trying to say in a way that is meaningful, but I won’t bother asking because ‘you can’t do my thinking for me’.
As best I understood it, the point was that one’s belief in one’s own goodness is a source of drive—and if that goodness is false, the drive is misaimed, and the greater drive makes for greater ill consequences.
I think we agree that belief in one’s own goodness has the capability to go quite wrong, in such cases as the quote describes more wrong than an all-other-things-being-equal belief in one’s own evil. Where we seem to disagree is on the inevitability of this failure mode—I acknowledge that the failure mode exists and we should be cautious about it (although that may not have come across), whereas you seem to be implying that the failure mode is so prevalent that it would be better not to try to be a good overlord at all.
Partially. Yes, I would assert that the failure mode you’re talking about is prevalent (and point to a LOT of history to support that assertion; no one is evil is his own story). However the main point in the quote we’re talking about isn’t quite that, I think. Instead, consider such concepts as “autonomy”, “individuality”, and “diversity”.
I think you entirely missed the point.
I don’t think that helps AndHisHorse figure out the point.
I can’t do his thinking for him.
You may not be able to make a horse drink, but you can still lead it to water rather than merely point out it’s thirsty. Teaching is a thing that people do with demonstrated beneficial results across a wide range of topics. Why would this be an exception?
I think you overestimate the extent to which many LW users comment to help others understand things, as opposed to (say) gain social status at their expense.
Be careful when defining the winner as someone other than the one currently sitting on a mound of utility.
Most lesswrong users at least profess to want to be above social status games, so calling people out on it increases expected comment quality and personal social status/karma, at least a little.
Unfortunately, professing something does not make it true any more than putting a sign saying “Cold” on a refrigerator that isn’t plugged in will make it cold.
I’m not pointing out it’s thirsty, I’m pointing out there is no water where it thinks to drink.
In the analogy, water represents the point of the quote (possibly as applied to CEV). You’re saying there is no point. I don’t understand what you’re trying to say in a way that is meaningful, but I won’t bother asking because ‘you can’t do my thinking for me’.
Edit: fiiiine, what do you mean?
As best I understood it, the point was that one’s belief in one’s own goodness is a source of drive—and if that goodness is false, the drive is misaimed, and the greater drive makes for greater ill consequences.
I think we agree that belief in one’s own goodness has the capability to go quite wrong, in such cases as the quote describes more wrong than an all-other-things-being-equal belief in one’s own evil. Where we seem to disagree is on the inevitability of this failure mode—I acknowledge that the failure mode exists and we should be cautious about it (although that may not have come across), whereas you seem to be implying that the failure mode is so prevalent that it would be better not to try to be a good overlord at all.
Am I understanding your position correctly?
Partially. Yes, I would assert that the failure mode you’re talking about is prevalent (and point to a LOT of history to support that assertion; no one is evil is his own story). However the main point in the quote we’re talking about isn’t quite that, I think. Instead, consider such concepts as “autonomy”, “individuality”, and “diversity”.