I’d question that. I’d call it “a bit of a vulnerability.”
On a community site, I think you have to assume almost all people aren’t malicious. And I think that’s been shown to be the case here—some cluelessness or insanity, but the only malice from spammers and the very occasional troll.
What’s the expected damage? A bad post? Moderate it to oblivion and possibly an editor will need to zap spam.
tl;dr: it’s not a problem unless and until it’s actually a problem.
On a community site, I think you have to assume almost all people aren’t malicious.
We also need to optimize the extent to which this is the case. My point was about vulnerability to small groups of outsiders, for which the state of the community is not particularly relevant.
What’s the expected damage? A bad post?
Moderately bad posts that appear to be warmly supported by the community. This sends incorrect signals about the community to members of the community.
Moderately bad posts that appear to be warmly supported by the community. This sends incorrect signals about the community to members of the community.
I see what you’re saying here, but this strikes me as difficult to sustain, and liable to working too hard to defend purity at the cost of the valuable good faith outside view. YMMV, of course.
On a community site, I think you have to assume almost all people aren’t malicious. And I think that’s been shown to be the case here—some cluelessness or insanity, but the only malice from spammers and the very occasional troll.
Spammers do not qualify for the label ‘malicious’. They simply have other goals that happen to be served in a way that is detrimental to lesswrong. Malice means actually assigning utility to decreases in utility of the other not mere indifference.
I do not object to that definition of malice, but according to it, most of the harm in the world is not done out of malice. Instead, it’s done through selfishness and (to the extent that one’s motives are not selfish) insufficient interest in thinking through the consequences of one’s actions and through the natural human tendency to accentuate the good and not see the bad in oneself and one’s friends.
I do not object to that definition of malice, but according to it, most of the harm in the world is not done out of malice.
Boom! ie. Terrorism would seem to have a significant degree of malice involved, as would the majority of murders. Spreading lies about another person is often motivated by malice, the exceptions being at the higher end of political intrigue or sociopathy.
Instead, it’s done through insufficient interest in thinking through the consequences of one’s actions and through the natural human tendency to accentuate the good and not see the bad in oneself and one’s friends.
There is certainly a lot of that. There is more stupidity than there is evil.
But note that it is not just insufficient thinking about consequences. Simply having different preferences wherein you just don’t care about negative consequences as measured by the other results in the ‘harm’ of which we speak. Neither malice nor ignorance is required; mere rational self interest is sufficient.
I somewhat see where you’re coming from, but this definition of “malice” appears to me to take the word “malice” rather too far from conventional English usage for usefulness in communication to others. Conventional usage includes gross negligence where the agent knew or should have known of the consequences.
but this definition of “malice” appears to me to take the word “malice” rather too far from conventional English usage for usefulness in communication to others.
You are mistaken. I provided the standard English definition, correcting your somewhat misleading usage. Maliciousness refers either to taking pleasure in the thought of someone coming to harm or the deliberate intent to do said harm.
Reference to google: define confirms this. The exhaustive list of non tautological (that more than simply refer from ‘maliciousness’ to ‘malice’) is as follows:
Of, pertaining to, or as a result of malice or spite; Deliberately harmful; spiteful
maliciousness—malice: feeling a need to see others suffer
Maliciousness—Malice is a legal term referring to a party’s intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied. Malice is expressed when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a human being.
wanting to cause harm or pain to another
Basically it is about one of intention, desire or taking pleasure. Other usages (if there are any) are far more obscure. This is good because we need a word to refer to having a reduction in someone else’s utility as a terminal value and ‘spite’ has somewhat different connotations. Spammers only interested in advertising their products simply do not qualify. ‘Evil’ would be a legitimate word in the context.
I’d question that. I’d call it “a bit of a vulnerability.”
On a community site, I think you have to assume almost all people aren’t malicious. And I think that’s been shown to be the case here—some cluelessness or insanity, but the only malice from spammers and the very occasional troll.
What’s the expected damage? A bad post? Moderate it to oblivion and possibly an editor will need to zap spam.
tl;dr: it’s not a problem unless and until it’s actually a problem.
We also need to optimize the extent to which this is the case. My point was about vulnerability to small groups of outsiders, for which the state of the community is not particularly relevant.
Moderately bad posts that appear to be warmly supported by the community. This sends incorrect signals about the community to members of the community.
I see what you’re saying here, but this strikes me as difficult to sustain, and liable to working too hard to defend purity at the cost of the valuable good faith outside view. YMMV, of course.
Spammers do not qualify for the label ‘malicious’. They simply have other goals that happen to be served in a way that is detrimental to lesswrong. Malice means actually assigning utility to decreases in utility of the other not mere indifference.
I do not object to that definition of malice, but according to it, most of the harm in the world is not done out of malice. Instead, it’s done through selfishness and (to the extent that one’s motives are not selfish) insufficient interest in thinking through the consequences of one’s actions and through the natural human tendency to accentuate the good and not see the bad in oneself and one’s friends.
Boom! ie. Terrorism would seem to have a significant degree of malice involved, as would the majority of murders. Spreading lies about another person is often motivated by malice, the exceptions being at the higher end of political intrigue or sociopathy.
There is certainly a lot of that. There is more stupidity than there is evil.
But note that it is not just insufficient thinking about consequences. Simply having different preferences wherein you just don’t care about negative consequences as measured by the other results in the ‘harm’ of which we speak. Neither malice nor ignorance is required; mere rational self interest is sufficient.
Good point, so I added, “selfishness and (to the extent that one’s motives are not selfish)”.
I like it!
I’d almost say “malicious” is anthropomorphizing—they’re malicious like an UFAI.
I somewhat see where you’re coming from, but this definition of “malice” appears to me to take the word “malice” rather too far from conventional English usage for usefulness in communication to others. Conventional usage includes gross negligence where the agent knew or should have known of the consequences.
You are mistaken. I provided the standard English definition, correcting your somewhat misleading usage. Maliciousness refers either to taking pleasure in the thought of someone coming to harm or the deliberate intent to do said harm.
Reference to google: define confirms this. The exhaustive list of non tautological (that more than simply refer from ‘maliciousness’ to ‘malice’) is as follows:
Of, pertaining to, or as a result of malice or spite; Deliberately harmful; spiteful
maliciousness—malice: feeling a need to see others suffer
Maliciousness—Malice is a legal term referring to a party’s intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied. Malice is expressed when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a human being.
wanting to cause harm or pain to another
Basically it is about one of intention, desire or taking pleasure. Other usages (if there are any) are far more obscure. This is good because we need a word to refer to having a reduction in someone else’s utility as a terminal value and ‘spite’ has somewhat different connotations. Spammers only interested in advertising their products simply do not qualify. ‘Evil’ would be a legitimate word in the context.