I am going to make a prediction that you likely grew up in a smaller community in Utah or Eastern Idaho.
Wrong. I moved to Utah already an atheist. I didn’t grow up in any one area, my family moved several times when I was younger. For example, I lived in Arizona, California, Georgia, and North Carolina before moving to Utah. The state I feel most confident in calling my home is California, since I lived there from 2004 to 2009.
In regards to the Journal of Discourse quote, the actual doctrine that Brigham Young is talking about it is very much emphasized and is found in the D&C, the Book of Abraham, and explicitly in the Temple. A dead giveaway is his reference to philosophers, he isn’t talking about us being aliens but that our spirits always existed and come from where God is rather then being created at birth as thought in the rest of Christianity.
I highly disagree that this is what Brigham Young actually intended to teach. For example, in another part of the Journal of Discourses he says:
Though we have it in history that our father Adam was made of the dust of this earth, and that he knew nothing about his God previous to being made here, yet it is not so; and when we learn the truth we shall see and understand that he helped to make this world, and was the chief manager in that operation. He was the person who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world, and brought a wife with him and stayed here. You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle.LINK
It does not seem at all that he is talking about the creation of their spirits, but the creation of their bodies.
Given this and your explanation of The God Delusion I take it you aren’t that familiar with non-LDS Christian philosophy and the vast differences between us and them.
I have to admit I didn’t regard myself as extremely familiar with Christian philosophy before my de-conversion, but I’ve learned a great deal since coming home from my mission. However, I don’t think this was a very fair assessment of my knowledge on your part. There is nothing I’ve written that gives strong evidence for me being ignorant of Christian and Mormon theology. It seems to me you want to de-legitimize what I have to say by painting me as unintelligent and inexperienced with my own religion. Now, do you really think a person who has studied the Journal of Discourses wouldn’t also most likely be a person who has spent a lot of time and energy investigating the rest of Mormon theology? I mean, a scholar I am not but I definitely know my way around Mormonism, more than most Mormons I know at the very least.
The church has not changed at all its position on same-sex marriage and just filed an amicus brief on the subject. I can see how your conclusion on the subject was drawn though.
There is a big difference between an “official position” and what is taught in the chapel and at the dinner table.
Since it appears that you grew up in a pluralistic society then I have no idea why you considered everyone different then you to not be a good person and feel you were never exposed to the idea that they possibly could be a good person. Considering that Jesus (Matthew 25:40), Paul (Romans 2), Nephi, Benjamin, Alma, and Moroni all say that it is action more then belief that defines who is saved, who has faith, and who is good, happy and healthy then I don’t know how it was a shocking revelation that those who do not have the law but that act by nature according to law are just as much blessed as those that have the law.
I fail to see how blood atonement, Adam-God, racist theology, and polygamist theology gave you the slightest impression that the Journal of Discourses was a good source of doctrine. It is my personal experience that generally those that spend the most time reading it are those least familiar with the gospel, on either end of the spectrum. The biggest fans of the Journal of Discourses seem to be those that are trying to prove the church wrong and those that are seeking “deep” doctrine while ignoring the weightier parts of the gospel, by which I mean those that try to square Adam-God statements or that speculate on the location of the ten tribes or Kolob.
For instance nearly everyone that has taken the time to figure out what Christians say of God in their arguments for God and what the D&C says on the subject quickly realize that the two are wholly incompatible. That those beliefs on God and the arguments in favor of those beliefs are mixing Greek philosophy with scripture to synthesis a new belief. Not that members of the church are not also guilty of mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, that is a very common occurrence as you note with “what is taught in the chapel and the dinner table”, me, I tend to focus on the current authorized messengers from God and the Holy Spirit as I feel that is what I have been instructed to do.
I never said that I considered people different than me to not be good. What I said in earlier comments is that I liked The God Delusion because it introduced me to the concept that you can be “a good, healthy, happy person without believing in God”. I believed that those who did not have faith in God would be more likely to be immoral, would be more likely to be unhealthy, and would definitely be more unhappy than if they did believe in God. The book presented to me a case for how atheists can be just as moral, just as healthy, just as happy as theists, an argument I had never seen articulated before. I apologize that I had never conjured this idea up before reading The God Delusion, it just seemed obvious to me based on my study of the Gospel that they couldn’t be.
What passages in the scriptures tell you that you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God? It seems pretty consistent to me that in the scriptures they say you can only have those qualities in your life if you believe in God and follow his commandments.
I fail to see how blood atonement, Adam-God, racist theology, and polygamist theology gave you the slightest impression that the Journal of Discourses was a good source of doctrine.
I believed in blood atonement, the Adam-God theory, much of the racist theology, and in polygamy. Why wouldn’t I? The prophets speak for God. God would not let a prophet lead the Church astray. My patriarchal blessing told me to always follow the prophets. No one ever told me I could question and disagree with the prophets and still be a member of the LDS Church in good standing. I apologize that I didn’t come to the same understanding a you, but I don’t see any reason I would have with the life experiences I had.
The biggest fans of the Journal of Discourses seem to be those that are trying to prove the church wrong and those that are seeking “deep” doctrine while ignoring the weightier parts of the gospel, by which I mean those that try to square Adam-God statements or that speculate on the location of the ten tribes or Kolob.
I really liked “deep doctrine”. :) If I had been alive during the Roman Empire I think I would have been a sucker for the mystery cults. Still, what do you even mean by the “weightier parts of the gospel”? I feel like that is so subjective as to be meaningless in our conversation. How can we determine objectively which parts of the Gospel is more important?
I tend to focus on the current authorized messengers from God and the Holy Spirit as I feel that is what I have been instructed to do.
Great. I have no problem with you finding a way to make it all work in your head. Obviously I couldn’t discover how to make it work in mine after discovering things that I did. No amount of instruction could keep it all from unraveling.
I wish you weren’t so hostile against me just because I’m making your in-group look bad.
What passages in the scriptures tell you that you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God?
I already pointed you to Romans 2, specifically in this case Romans 2:13-15, did you want more?
Why wouldn’t I?
A prophet is only a prophet when they are acting as a prophet. More specifically there are multiple First Presidency statements saying Adam-God is wrong; Statements by Apostles saying that the racist theology was created with limited understanding and is wrong (as well as more recent church statements saying explicitly that it is contrary to the teachings of Christ); I am not referring to polygamy as a practice but the belief that polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant itself, which again has revelation and first presidency statements and even the scriptures on polygamy saying that is wrong; Also given that none of those theories were presented to the Quorums of the Church and that Apostles and a member of the First Presidency disagreed vocally with Adam-God at the time I would have thought it was clear that one can disagree with ideas not presented as revelation and not sanctioned by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. I mean, the D&C has procedures on how to conduct a disciplinary council of the prophet so while the prophet will not lead the church astray they are quite capable of sinning and of theorizing based of revelation and their own prejudices as anyone else, though they seem to have mostly gotten better at not doing that.
what do you even mean by the “weightier parts of the gospel”?
The two great commandments: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself, and the actual gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Statements of the effect of that being sufficient for anyone or even that being the doctrine of Christ and the only doctrine of Christ and anything more or less being declared as the doctrine of Christ being evil seem fairly objective in stating which parts of the Gospel are most important.
I already pointed you to Romans 2, specifically in this case Romans 2:13-15, did you want more?
Yes. I don’t see anything in Romans 2 that shows me that you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God.
A prophet is only a prophet when they are acting as a prophet.
But you have to admit it’s hard sometimes to distinguish whether or not a prophet is acting as one.
More specifically there are multiple First Presidency statements saying Adam-God is wrong.
I never believed that Adam WAS Elohim, but I did believe that what Brigham Young and others intended to say was that Adam was the God of this Earth.
Statements by Apostles saying that the racist theology was created with limited understanding and is wrong
I never believed that black people were cursed for being fence-sitters in the War in Heaven, but I did believe that it was because of the curse of Cain that they couldn’t have the priesthood until 1978. In my defense I started believing around 2009 that the priesthood ban was just an incorrect Church policy. Still, I never read anything from the Apostles saying that the priesthood ban was wrong, just that it was unknown why there was a priesthood ban.
I am not referring to polygamy as a practice but the belief that polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant itself, which again has revelation and first presidency statements and even the scriptures on polygamy saying that is wrong.
I always believed that the new and everlasting covenant was referring to celestial marriage, but I did believe that polygamy would eventually be re-instated being that before the Second Coming there would have to be a restitution of all things.
Also given that none of those theories were presented to the Quorums of the Church and that Apostles and a member of the First Presidency disagreed vocally with Adam-God at the time I would have thought it was clear that one can disagree with ideas not presented as revelation and not sanctioned by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.
I really only developed an understanding of Official Doctrine after my deconversion. Before, however, my understanding was that every member of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were prophets, seers, and revelators and that they spoke directly with Jesus Christ, therefore they were incapable of teaching false doctrine to the members of the Church.
what do you even mean by the “weightier parts of the gospel”?
The two great commandments: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself, and the actual gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You were saying how those who read the Journal of Discourses “seem to be those that are trying to prove the church wrong and those that are seeking ‘deep’ doctrine while ignoring the weightier parts of the gospel”. I think you were trying to put me in the latter category, suggesting that I was ignoring what was really important in the Gospel. Now that you’ve explained what these “weightier parts” are, I assure you that I did not ignore these teachings. Those are incredibly simple and basic concepts that I had known for years and years. How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
How long have you been a member of the LDS Church?
I really only developed an understanding of Official Doctrine after my deconversion. Before, however, my understanding was that every member of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were prophets, seers, and revelators and that they spoke directly with Jesus Christ, therefore they were incapable of teaching false doctrine to the members of the Church.
I masquerade as a liberal Mormon on Facebook since I’m still in the closet with my unbelief. In my discussions with friends and family the most common position taken is that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles cannot teach false doctrine or else they will be forcibly removed by God. I even had a former missionary companion tell me that President Gordon B. Hinckley died in 2008 not from old age (he was 98) but because he had made false statements on Larry King Live concerning the doctrine of exaltation in which worthy Latter-day Saints can become gods.
Whatever the prophet says that doesn’t match up with their own interpretation of Mormonism is false? I honestly do not know, I never thought this way when I was LDS.
you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God
Paul saying those that didn’t know God and that didn’t have the law but that acted justly being justified because of their actions doesn’t imply to you that it is possible to be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God? How about this, where in “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” does it mention anything about having faith in God being a prerequisite for receiving a blessing? Where in “if ye have done it unto the least of these they brethren ye have done it unto me” does it say that one must believe in God for that to be valid?
“Till you have learnt to serve men, how can you serve spirits?”
But you have to admit it’s hard sometimes to distinguish whether or not a prophet is acting as one.
″ Would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!”
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
every member of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were prophets, seers, and revelators and that they spoke directly with Jesus Christ, therefore they were incapable of teaching false doctrine to the members of the Church.
I am not sure how the first part of this lead to the second part of this, but I will believe that was your belief.
How long have you been a member of the LDS Church?
Paul saying those that didn’t know God and that didn’t have the law but that acted justly being justified because of their actions doesn’t imply to you that it is possible to be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God?
I don’t know where you draw that implication from the word “justified”. So, no.
How about this, where in “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” does it mention anything about having faith in God being a prerequisite for receiving a blessing?
I guess I did have a very abstract belief that those who followed the commandments, the “law”, even if they didn’t believe, would still receive the same blessings as those who do. But, the part of The God Delusion that talked about atheists being just as happy, moral, and healthy as theists never said anything about following Mormon commandments to do so, and for that reason it was a revolutionary concept to me. What was a new concept was that you could have a lifestyle completely different from those lived by Latter-day Saints and still be moral, happy, and healthy. Though, come to think about it, I was introduced to this concept not just in The God Delusion, but also in my interactions with hundreds of Brazilian families. Certainly the mission experience added to the knowledge base I needed to refute Mormonism.
Where in “if ye have done it unto the least of these they brethren ye have done it unto me” does it say that one must believe in God for that to be valid?
“Till you have learnt to serve men, how can you serve spirits?”
″ Would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!”
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith. So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures (which I studied a great deal), and if they were never taught widely in the Church, then why exactly did I err in not coming to the same understanding as you? I do not think you have any good evidence for why I was an atypical Mormon who was unjustified in believing in the things I did.
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
every member of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were prophets, seers, and revelators and that they spoke directly with Jesus Christ, therefore they were incapable of teaching false doctrine to the members of the Church.
I am not sure how the first part of this lead to the second part of this, but I will believe that was your belief.
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith.
So, this whole debate is about whether your-previous-self, or JohnH, is better deserving of the title of ‘true Mormon’?
On a different point:
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
I would like to draw a figurative circle around this statement...
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
...and compare it to this one. They appear to contradict each other. Can you explain?
So, this whole debate is about whether your-previous-self, or JohnH, is better deserving of the title of ‘true Mormon’?
That’s funny. No. I don’t care what JohnH wants to be seen as or what title he deserves. I just want my previous-self identified as a “plausible Mormon”. In my opinion, JohnH wants me to be seen as a “fringe Mormon” whose departure from the LDS Church is unimportant in the debate over whether the LDS Church is true, because I didn’t really understand Latter-day Saint beliefs. Which I did as much as any other average Latter-day Saint I know.
They appear to contradict each other. Can you explain?
I don’t see the contradiction. These statements appear to be unrelated. Can you explain what contradiction you see?
That’s funny. No. I don’t care what JohnH wants to be seen as or what title he deserves. I just want my previous-self identified as a “plausible Mormon”. In my opinion, JohnH wants me to be seen as a “fringe Mormon” whose departure from the LDS Church is unimportant in the debate over whether the LDS Church is true, because I didn’t really understand Latter-day Saint beliefs. Which I did as much as any other average Latter-day Saint I know.
If you’re feeling trapped into arguing with this guy to defend your reputation, you may be better off just saying something like: “If you turn out to be right, and most people don’t believe the way I do, I’m still not going to start believing in the LDS. Therefore my expected return on this conversation is 0 and I’m not going to continue it.”
Certainly from my perspective that would be a much more high-status move than continuing to argue with the guy. Because, in all kindness: Your departure from the LDS is unimportant in the debate over whether the Church is true. Not because the beliefs are or are not commonly held, nor because they are or are not ridiculous, but because there are much better reasons for disbelieving. Whichever one of your views prevails here, it’s not going to serve as a good reason for me or anyone else to start believing or disbelieving.
Your reasons may be important in a discussion over why people leave the LDS—but that’s a separate issue to whether the LDS is true. So, you may not be getting what you think you’re getting in terms of reputation by arguing this over this.
I don’t see the contradiction. These statements appear to be unrelated. Can you explain what contradiction you see?
Well, let me start with the first example:
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
Paraphrasing somewhat, JohnH said ‘because Jesus said so’ and you responded that this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold a belief; that it needed to be logical as well.
While, in the second case...
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
...it seems that you are claiming that saying that ‘a man who has spoken with Jesus said so’ is sufficient reason for a Mormon to hold a belief.
I would expect the second reason to be weaker than the first, since in the second case there is someone else speaking in the middle (if you’ve ever played Broken Telephone, you’ll know why this is a bad thing). Yet you appear to be claiming that the second reason is stronger than the first. Hence my confusion.
Oh, okay, I understand how this could be seen as contradictory.
In the first case I was arguing from my own, real-time atheist self that believes Jesus was illogical in his comments on people forgetting the basic principles of Christianity in their pursuit for more knowledge. How could someone forget such simple principles like “love one another” in their pursuit for more knowledge? Note that I never said this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold this belief, I was only saying it was insufficient to atheist me and I wanted JohnH to provide a better defense of his point, which he didn’t.
In the second case I used past-tense ”… you think that it WAS unreasonable for me...”, and we were already talking about my former beliefs. So, I was arguing from my former Mormon self that did believe that Jesus saying something was enough to validate a belief.
The discussion became rather confusing because JohnH wanted to discredit my past beliefs rather than my current beliefs.
Ah, I see. You were trying to defend two contradictory positions, and I did not notice when you switched between them. (This is one reason why I find it’s often a bad idea to try to defend an idea that you have abandoned, by the way; it leads to confusion.)
How could someone forget such simple principles like “love one another” in their pursuit for more knowledge?
That is actually quite possible. Step one is a person who seeks more knowledge, and finds it. That’s fine, so far. Step two is the person realises that they are a lot more knowledgeable than anyone else; that’s fine as well, but it can be like standing on the edge of a cliff. Step three is that the person becomes arrogant. They see most other people as a distraction, as sort of sub-human. This is where things start to go wrong. Step four is when the person decides that he knows what the best thing for everyone else to do is better than they do. And if they won’t do it, then he’ll make them do it.
Before long, you could very well have a person who, while he admits that it’s important to love your fellow-man in theory, in practice thinks that the best thing to do is to start the Spanish Inquisition. The fact that the Spanish Inquisition ever existed, started by people who professed “love one another” as a core tenet of their faith, shows that this can happen...
Those are good examples. Though I guess whether this is possible depends on your definition of “forget”. Speaking of the Spanish Inquisition, I am of the opinion that the Inquisitors did not forget their core tenets but that further knowledge (however flawed) gave them new means to interpret the original tenets. You could suggest that this re-interpretation was exactly what Jesus wanted to keep people from doing, of course. The question I ask Christians, then, is “What knowledge is acceptable and how should it be attained when God doesn’t encourage the utilization of all knowledge?” This would certainly be an important question for theists to answer, and may be relatively simple. I can already guess a few possible answers.
Though I guess whether this is possible depends on your definition of “forget”.
I’m assuming “to act as though ignorant of the principle in question”.
The question I ask Christians, then, is “What knowledge is acceptable and how should it be attained when God doesn’t encourage the utilization of all knowledge?”
I don’t think its the knowledge that’s dangerous, in itself. I think it’s the arrogance. Or the sophisticated argument that starts with principles X and Y and leads to actions that directly contradict principle X.
For example; consider the following principles:
Love thy neighbour as thyself
Anyone who does not profess will be tortured terribly in Hell after death, beyond anything mortals can do
That’s enough to lead to the Inquisition, by this route:
Looking at Principle 2, I do not wish myself, or those that I love to enter Hell. Considering Principle 1, I must try to save everyone from that fate, by any means possible. I must therefore attempt to convert everyone to .
(Consideration of various means snipped for brevity)
Yet there may be some people who refuse to convert, even in the face of all these arguments. In such a case, would torture be acceptable? If a person who is not tortured does not repent, then he is doomed to what is worse than a mere few months, even a mere few years of torture; he is doomed to an eternity of torture. If a person is tortured into repentance, then he is saved an eternity of torture—a net gain for the victim. If he is tortured and does not repent, then he experiences an eternity of torture in any case—in that case, he is at least no worse off. So a tortured victim is at worst no worse off, and at best a good deal better off, than a man who does not repent. However, care must be taken to ensure that the victim does not die during torture, but before repenting.
Better yet, the mere rumour of torture may lead some to repent more swiftly. Thus, judicious use of torture becomes a moral imperative.
(As an exercise, incidentally, can you spot the flaw in that chain of reasoning?)
And then you have the Inquisitors, and fear and terror and sharp knives in dark rooms...
Step four is when the person decides that he knows what the best thing for everyone else to do is better than they do. And if they won’t do it, then he’ll make them do it.
It’s worth noting that if the person successfully “found knowledge”, they are in fact correct (unless it was irrelevant knowledge, I guess.)
Historical evidence suggests that people get to step 4 before correctly finding knowledge quite often. The Spanish Inquisition is a shining example. Or communism—in its original inception, it was supposed to be a utopian paradise where everyone does what work is necessary, and enjoys fair benefits therefrom.
I suspect that a common failure mode is that one fails to take into account that many people are doing that which they are doing because they are quite happy to do it. They’ve smoothed out any sharp corners in their lifestyle that they could manage to smooth out, and see little benefit in changing to a new lifestyle, with new and unexpected sharp corners that will need smoothing.
I would therefore recommend being very, very cautious about assuming that one has successfully found sufficient knowledge.
I agree there’s a common failure mode here—I’d be inclined to say it’s simple overconfidence, and maybe overestimating your rationality relative to everyone else.
Even then, I’d most likely object to their attempts to try to dictate the actions of others; because of the common failure mode, my heuristic is to assign a very strong prior to the hypothesis that they are unsuccessful. Also, trying force has some fairly substantial negative effects; any positive effects of their proposed behaviour change would have to be significant to overcome that.
However, if they are willing to try to change the actions of others through simple persuasion without resorting to force, then I would not object. And if their proposed course of action is significantly better, then I would expect persuasion to work in at least some cases; and then these cases can be used as evidence for the proposed course of action working.
To be fair, we may have different interventions in mind here. I would also expect someone who genuinely found knowledge to use “soft force”, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
However, if forcing people to do things really helps, I’m all for intervention. Addicts, for example.
It’s worth noting that if the person successfully “found knowledge”, they are in fact correct (unless it was irrelevant knowledge, I guess.)
This can never be put into practice. A person can try to find knowledge, but there is nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge—any such attempts collapse into part of trying to find knowledge. There is no way of getting to a meta-level from which you can judge whether your efforts bore fruit. The ladder has no rungs.
No, just that while you can try harder to find knowledge, there isn’t a separate metalevel at which seeing if you really have knowledge is a different activity.
If you can receive information that provides strong Bayesian evidence that you’re belief is true, how is there “nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge”?
I don’t know that much about Mormonism, but isn’t it possible that there are multiple different sects of it, just like there are multiple sects of conventional Christianity, Judaism, Wicca, etc. ? In this case, each member of a sect would see himself as the One True Mormon (tm), and would be technically correct, despite believing in different things than members of other sects.
Mormonism is much more structured then that. There are different sects but those sects are different churches, both of us come from the LDS church, which is the largest and the one that everyone thinks of when they say Mormon (unless they are thinking of the polygamous FLDS).
There are those that call themselves New Order Mormons which are within the LDS church, by which they mean they don’t believe in any of the truth claims of the church but like the culture (or something like that, I am sure I am taking what they say out of its “rich contextual setting”).
Thanks, that was informative ! So, I assume that the LDS is managed by the Prophet, similarly to how the Catholic Church is managed by the Pope ? I don’t mean to imply that the beliefs and the divine status (or lack thereof) of the two are equivalent, I’m merely comparing their places on the org chart.
Although, now that I think about it, even the Catholics have their sub-sects. For example, while the Pope is officially against contraception, many (if not most) American Catholics choose to ignore that part of the doctrine, and IIRC there are even some nuns actively campaigning to make it more accessible.
So, I assume that the LDS is managed by the Prophet, similarly to how the Catholic Church is managed by the Pope ?
If memory serves, the President of the (LDS) Church, his advisors, and the members of the church’s senior leadership council (called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) all hold the title of prophet—specifically “prophet, seer, and revelator”. That doesn’t necessarily carry all the implications that “prophet” might outside of an Mormon context, though. One of the quirks of Mormonism is a certain degree of rank inflation compared to most Abrahamic religions; almost all male Mormons enter what the religion calls an order of priesthood) at the age of twelve, for example, and a second when they reach eighteen.
But yes, for most purposes the President of the Church is loosely equivalent to the Catholic Pope. Things get a little funky as you get into lower ranks: the LDS org chart is much more complicated than the Catholic, with several layers of leadership councils and more titles than I can easily keep straight. Though it hasn’t developed the numerous unofficial and semi-official leadership roles that Catholicism has, being a smaller and younger religion.
I am mostly just answering direct questions, I am horrible at walking away when questions are asked. Since this conversation is far outside of the norms of the group, I will do so in a private message if atomliner wants to continue the conversation. If he would rather it be public I would be willing to set up a blog for the purpose of continuing this conversation.
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith. So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures (which I studied a great deal), and if they were never taught widely in the Church, then why exactly did I err in not coming to the same understanding as you? I do not think you have any good evidence for why I was an atypical Mormon who was unjustified in believing in the things I did.
This here is an excellent point. I’m pretty sure all religions have “unofficial” doctrines; certainly it would fit my experience. Such doctrines have no bearing on the truth of the “official” doctrines, technically, but they are identified with the religion by believers and unbelievers alike.
That said, while I’m hardly an authority on Mormonism, I would guess your beliefs were more, well, strange than average—simply because your deconversion selects for unconvincing and dissonant beliefs.
So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures
Please show what I said (excluding the reference to Confucius) is not clearly based in scripture, Numbers 11:29 may be helpful.
would not teach false doctrine?
Yes. that is unreasonable to assume
Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
Absolutely, if Jesus says something to a prophet then what Jesus said was correct. What the prophet thinks and communicates in addition to that particular thing has no guarantee of being correct and is very likely to be at least partially incorrect. The prophet will place the words of Jesus in the framework of other beliefs and cultural constructs in the world in which they live. Prophets just as much as anyone else do not receive the fullness at once, meaning that of necessity some of their beliefs (and therefore some of their teachings) will not be correct, excluding Jesus. Prophets are not perfect any more then anyone else is perfect and we are supposed to use the light of the Spirit to discern the truth ourselves rather then follow the prophet without thought or seeking to know for ourselves. In other words, telling people to seek God as to every question is calling them to be prophets.
Why is what he said logical to you?
Because I have not stood in the Divine Council and so I know that not only do I not know the secrets of God I also do not have a complete understanding of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, of loving God or of loving my neighbor as myself, nor will I until, either in this life or the next, I hear the Father say Ye shall have eternal life and receive an end to my faith.
Please show what I said (excluding the reference to Confucius) is not clearly based in scripture, Numbers 11:29 may be helpful.
I apologize. I had thought that you were using the three scriptures I quoted earlier to support the point that the scriptures confirms that atheists can be as happy, healthy, and moral as theists. In actuality, you were using them to describe how blessings come from following the commandments and not just from belief in the first two cases and in the third case you were supporting the idea that God understands it is difficult for people to distinguish truth from error.
The point I made about our conversation still stands, however. Your goal seems to be “Make atomliner look like he didn’t believe in things Mormons should” while my goal is “show I was a normal Latter-day Saint before losing my faith”.
What the prophet thinks and communicates in addition to that particular thing has no guarantee of being correct and is very likely to be at least partially incorrect. The prophet will place the words of Jesus in the framework of other beliefs and cultural constructs in the world in which they live. Prophets just as much as anyone else do not receive the fullness at once, meaning that of necessity some of their beliefs (and therefore some of their teachings) will not be correct, excluding Jesus.
I have two problems with this. The first is that I do not see any scriptures supporting this view clearly. How was I supposed to know this? No one teaches in church that prophets can teach false doctrine. In my experience with hundreds of active Latter-day Saints, THIS belief is atypical. In fact I just got called out by a bunch of mission buddies for saying this on Facebook, that the prophets can sometimes lead us astray (we were talking about gay marriage), and I got called an apostate outright.
My second problem is that I said false doctrine, not small inaccuracies attributed to translation error. You think that a prophet could speak to Jesus Christ face-to-face and then write up entire discourses on stuff like Adam-God theory, blood atonement, doctrinal racism and affirm boldly that this is the truth to the Saints? God must have a very strange way of picking his prophets, it seems like he would want to call people who wouldn’t invent their own ideas and who would simply repeat to the Saints what was said to them by Christ. I mean, does God want the truth expressed accurately or not? Were the prophets really the best people available for this task?? They have a terrible track record.
Why is what he said logical to you?
Because I have not stood in the Divine Council and so I know that not only do I not know the secrets of God I also do not have a complete understanding of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, of loving God or of loving my neighbor as myself, nor will I until, either in this life or the next, I hear the Father say Ye shall have eternal life and receive an end to my faith.
Great. That still makes no logical sense to ME since I don’t believe in any of that. So, failure on your part to defend this point from an objective argument.
Why is that relevant? Older than you.
You are saying in your experience Mormonism is obviously a certain way and I’m saying in my experience Mormonism was not that way… I was wondering how much of a difference there is in our amount of experience. Did you hold all of these liberal Mormon beliefs when you were 21?
you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God
Paul saying those that didn’t know God and that didn’t have the law but that acted justly being justified because of their actions doesn’t imply to you that it is possible to be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God? How about this, where in “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” does it mention anything about having faith in God being a prerequisite for receiving a blessing? Where in “if ye have done it unto the least of these they brethren ye have done it unto me” does it say that one must believe in God for that to be valid?
Regardless of its scriptural authenticity, it is a common claim. I’m not surprised atomliner thought this at some point.
[Disclaimer: I’m extrapolating from mainstream Christianity here. It’s possible this does not apply to Mormons.]
There are actually quite a few rules given to determine if a messenger is from God. Jesus for instance said “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself”, then there is the qualification in Deuteronomy, the requirement in John, the experiment in Alma, the promise in Moroni, and some details in the D&C. It is somewhat of a bootstrapping problem as one must already trust one of those sources, or the person presenting those sources, enough to move forward in trying to verify the source and messenger.
Well, the usual method is to simply check if they’re consistent with earlier messages. Which is great until you remember that the Devil can quote scripture to his purpose.
The canonical method, on the other hand, is to check if the messenger professes Jesus as Lord, since as we all know demons can’t do that, so by process of elimination it must be an angel (and therefore true.)
No, I don’t know what you’re supposed to do if it’s a hallucination.
Jesus goes so far as to discourage both humans and demons from telling people about his Messiahship; demons tended to be pretty quick to start yelling about how he was the messiah/could torment them /etc. Legion is the most memorable case, but I seem to remember an incident from earlier on in Jesus’ life when he had to silence a demon that was revealing his identity (maybe it was in Luke?).
And yet, I’ve read that piece of, um, advice in books by at least one actual exorcist; a pretty high-level one at that. It appears to be the official Thing To Do in response to a questionably divine visitation.
Wrong. I moved to Utah already an atheist. I didn’t grow up in any one area, my family moved several times when I was younger. For example, I lived in Arizona, California, Georgia, and North Carolina before moving to Utah. The state I feel most confident in calling my home is California, since I lived there from 2004 to 2009.
I highly disagree that this is what Brigham Young actually intended to teach. For example, in another part of the Journal of Discourses he says:
It does not seem at all that he is talking about the creation of their spirits, but the creation of their bodies.
I have to admit I didn’t regard myself as extremely familiar with Christian philosophy before my de-conversion, but I’ve learned a great deal since coming home from my mission. However, I don’t think this was a very fair assessment of my knowledge on your part. There is nothing I’ve written that gives strong evidence for me being ignorant of Christian and Mormon theology. It seems to me you want to de-legitimize what I have to say by painting me as unintelligent and inexperienced with my own religion. Now, do you really think a person who has studied the Journal of Discourses wouldn’t also most likely be a person who has spent a lot of time and energy investigating the rest of Mormon theology? I mean, a scholar I am not but I definitely know my way around Mormonism, more than most Mormons I know at the very least.
There is a big difference between an “official position” and what is taught in the chapel and at the dinner table.
Since it appears that you grew up in a pluralistic society then I have no idea why you considered everyone different then you to not be a good person and feel you were never exposed to the idea that they possibly could be a good person. Considering that Jesus (Matthew 25:40), Paul (Romans 2), Nephi, Benjamin, Alma, and Moroni all say that it is action more then belief that defines who is saved, who has faith, and who is good, happy and healthy then I don’t know how it was a shocking revelation that those who do not have the law but that act by nature according to law are just as much blessed as those that have the law.
I fail to see how blood atonement, Adam-God, racist theology, and polygamist theology gave you the slightest impression that the Journal of Discourses was a good source of doctrine. It is my personal experience that generally those that spend the most time reading it are those least familiar with the gospel, on either end of the spectrum. The biggest fans of the Journal of Discourses seem to be those that are trying to prove the church wrong and those that are seeking “deep” doctrine while ignoring the weightier parts of the gospel, by which I mean those that try to square Adam-God statements or that speculate on the location of the ten tribes or Kolob.
For instance nearly everyone that has taken the time to figure out what Christians say of God in their arguments for God and what the D&C says on the subject quickly realize that the two are wholly incompatible. That those beliefs on God and the arguments in favor of those beliefs are mixing Greek philosophy with scripture to synthesis a new belief. Not that members of the church are not also guilty of mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, that is a very common occurrence as you note with “what is taught in the chapel and the dinner table”, me, I tend to focus on the current authorized messengers from God and the Holy Spirit as I feel that is what I have been instructed to do.
I never said that I considered people different than me to not be good. What I said in earlier comments is that I liked The God Delusion because it introduced me to the concept that you can be “a good, healthy, happy person without believing in God”. I believed that those who did not have faith in God would be more likely to be immoral, would be more likely to be unhealthy, and would definitely be more unhappy than if they did believe in God. The book presented to me a case for how atheists can be just as moral, just as healthy, just as happy as theists, an argument I had never seen articulated before. I apologize that I had never conjured this idea up before reading The God Delusion, it just seemed obvious to me based on my study of the Gospel that they couldn’t be.
What passages in the scriptures tell you that you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God? It seems pretty consistent to me that in the scriptures they say you can only have those qualities in your life if you believe in God and follow his commandments.
I believed in blood atonement, the Adam-God theory, much of the racist theology, and in polygamy. Why wouldn’t I? The prophets speak for God. God would not let a prophet lead the Church astray. My patriarchal blessing told me to always follow the prophets. No one ever told me I could question and disagree with the prophets and still be a member of the LDS Church in good standing. I apologize that I didn’t come to the same understanding a you, but I don’t see any reason I would have with the life experiences I had.
I really liked “deep doctrine”. :) If I had been alive during the Roman Empire I think I would have been a sucker for the mystery cults. Still, what do you even mean by the “weightier parts of the gospel”? I feel like that is so subjective as to be meaningless in our conversation. How can we determine objectively which parts of the Gospel is more important?
Great. I have no problem with you finding a way to make it all work in your head. Obviously I couldn’t discover how to make it work in mine after discovering things that I did. No amount of instruction could keep it all from unraveling.
I wish you weren’t so hostile against me just because I’m making your in-group look bad.
I already pointed you to Romans 2, specifically in this case Romans 2:13-15, did you want more?
A prophet is only a prophet when they are acting as a prophet. More specifically there are multiple First Presidency statements saying Adam-God is wrong; Statements by Apostles saying that the racist theology was created with limited understanding and is wrong (as well as more recent church statements saying explicitly that it is contrary to the teachings of Christ); I am not referring to polygamy as a practice but the belief that polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant itself, which again has revelation and first presidency statements and even the scriptures on polygamy saying that is wrong; Also given that none of those theories were presented to the Quorums of the Church and that Apostles and a member of the First Presidency disagreed vocally with Adam-God at the time I would have thought it was clear that one can disagree with ideas not presented as revelation and not sanctioned by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. I mean, the D&C has procedures on how to conduct a disciplinary council of the prophet so while the prophet will not lead the church astray they are quite capable of sinning and of theorizing based of revelation and their own prejudices as anyone else, though they seem to have mostly gotten better at not doing that.
The two great commandments: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself, and the actual gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Statements of the effect of that being sufficient for anyone or even that being the doctrine of Christ and the only doctrine of Christ and anything more or less being declared as the doctrine of Christ being evil seem fairly objective in stating which parts of the Gospel are most important.
Yes. I don’t see anything in Romans 2 that shows me that you can be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God.
But you have to admit it’s hard sometimes to distinguish whether or not a prophet is acting as one.
I never believed that Adam WAS Elohim, but I did believe that what Brigham Young and others intended to say was that Adam was the God of this Earth.
I never believed that black people were cursed for being fence-sitters in the War in Heaven, but I did believe that it was because of the curse of Cain that they couldn’t have the priesthood until 1978. In my defense I started believing around 2009 that the priesthood ban was just an incorrect Church policy. Still, I never read anything from the Apostles saying that the priesthood ban was wrong, just that it was unknown why there was a priesthood ban.
I always believed that the new and everlasting covenant was referring to celestial marriage, but I did believe that polygamy would eventually be re-instated being that before the Second Coming there would have to be a restitution of all things.
I really only developed an understanding of Official Doctrine after my deconversion. Before, however, my understanding was that every member of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were prophets, seers, and revelators and that they spoke directly with Jesus Christ, therefore they were incapable of teaching false doctrine to the members of the Church.
You were saying how those who read the Journal of Discourses “seem to be those that are trying to prove the church wrong and those that are seeking ‘deep’ doctrine while ignoring the weightier parts of the gospel”. I think you were trying to put me in the latter category, suggesting that I was ignoring what was really important in the Gospel. Now that you’ve explained what these “weightier parts” are, I assure you that I did not ignore these teachings. Those are incredibly simple and basic concepts that I had known for years and years. How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
How long have you been a member of the LDS Church?
I wonder how common this is?
I masquerade as a liberal Mormon on Facebook since I’m still in the closet with my unbelief. In my discussions with friends and family the most common position taken is that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles cannot teach false doctrine or else they will be forcibly removed by God. I even had a former missionary companion tell me that President Gordon B. Hinckley died in 2008 not from old age (he was 98) but because he had made false statements on Larry King Live concerning the doctrine of exaltation in which worthy Latter-day Saints can become gods.
How do they distinguish between true statements which precede their deaths, and false statements which cause their deaths?
Whatever the prophet says that doesn’t match up with their own interpretation of Mormonism is false? I honestly do not know, I never thought this way when I was LDS.
Interesting.
Paul saying those that didn’t know God and that didn’t have the law but that acted justly being justified because of their actions doesn’t imply to you that it is possible to be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God? How about this, where in “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” does it mention anything about having faith in God being a prerequisite for receiving a blessing? Where in “if ye have done it unto the least of these they brethren ye have done it unto me” does it say that one must believe in God for that to be valid?
“Till you have learnt to serve men, how can you serve spirits?”
″ Would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!”
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
I am not sure how the first part of this lead to the second part of this, but I will believe that was your belief.
My whole life.
I don’t know where you draw that implication from the word “justified”. So, no.
I guess I did have a very abstract belief that those who followed the commandments, the “law”, even if they didn’t believe, would still receive the same blessings as those who do. But, the part of The God Delusion that talked about atheists being just as happy, moral, and healthy as theists never said anything about following Mormon commandments to do so, and for that reason it was a revolutionary concept to me. What was a new concept was that you could have a lifestyle completely different from those lived by Latter-day Saints and still be moral, happy, and healthy. Though, come to think about it, I was introduced to this concept not just in The God Delusion, but also in my interactions with hundreds of Brazilian families. Certainly the mission experience added to the knowledge base I needed to refute Mormonism.
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith. So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures (which I studied a great deal), and if they were never taught widely in the Church, then why exactly did I err in not coming to the same understanding as you? I do not think you have any good evidence for why I was an atypical Mormon who was unjustified in believing in the things I did.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
And you are how old?
So, this whole debate is about whether your-previous-self, or JohnH, is better deserving of the title of ‘true Mormon’?
On a different point:
I would like to draw a figurative circle around this statement...
...and compare it to this one. They appear to contradict each other. Can you explain?
That’s funny. No. I don’t care what JohnH wants to be seen as or what title he deserves. I just want my previous-self identified as a “plausible Mormon”. In my opinion, JohnH wants me to be seen as a “fringe Mormon” whose departure from the LDS Church is unimportant in the debate over whether the LDS Church is true, because I didn’t really understand Latter-day Saint beliefs. Which I did as much as any other average Latter-day Saint I know.
I don’t see the contradiction. These statements appear to be unrelated. Can you explain what contradiction you see?
If you’re feeling trapped into arguing with this guy to defend your reputation, you may be better off just saying something like: “If you turn out to be right, and most people don’t believe the way I do, I’m still not going to start believing in the LDS. Therefore my expected return on this conversation is 0 and I’m not going to continue it.”
Certainly from my perspective that would be a much more high-status move than continuing to argue with the guy. Because, in all kindness: Your departure from the LDS is unimportant in the debate over whether the Church is true. Not because the beliefs are or are not commonly held, nor because they are or are not ridiculous, but because there are much better reasons for disbelieving. Whichever one of your views prevails here, it’s not going to serve as a good reason for me or anyone else to start believing or disbelieving.
Your reasons may be important in a discussion over why people leave the LDS—but that’s a separate issue to whether the LDS is true. So, you may not be getting what you think you’re getting in terms of reputation by arguing this over this.
Those are strong arguments for discontinuing this discussion. Thank you for helping me grok this situation better. :)
Well, let me start with the first example:
Paraphrasing somewhat, JohnH said ‘because Jesus said so’ and you responded that this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold a belief; that it needed to be logical as well.
While, in the second case...
...it seems that you are claiming that saying that ‘a man who has spoken with Jesus said so’ is sufficient reason for a Mormon to hold a belief.
I would expect the second reason to be weaker than the first, since in the second case there is someone else speaking in the middle (if you’ve ever played Broken Telephone, you’ll know why this is a bad thing). Yet you appear to be claiming that the second reason is stronger than the first. Hence my confusion.
Oh, okay, I understand how this could be seen as contradictory.
In the first case I was arguing from my own, real-time atheist self that believes Jesus was illogical in his comments on people forgetting the basic principles of Christianity in their pursuit for more knowledge. How could someone forget such simple principles like “love one another” in their pursuit for more knowledge? Note that I never said this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold this belief, I was only saying it was insufficient to atheist me and I wanted JohnH to provide a better defense of his point, which he didn’t.
In the second case I used past-tense ”… you think that it WAS unreasonable for me...”, and we were already talking about my former beliefs. So, I was arguing from my former Mormon self that did believe that Jesus saying something was enough to validate a belief.
The discussion became rather confusing because JohnH wanted to discredit my past beliefs rather than my current beliefs.
Ah, I see. You were trying to defend two contradictory positions, and I did not notice when you switched between them. (This is one reason why I find it’s often a bad idea to try to defend an idea that you have abandoned, by the way; it leads to confusion.)
That is actually quite possible. Step one is a person who seeks more knowledge, and finds it. That’s fine, so far. Step two is the person realises that they are a lot more knowledgeable than anyone else; that’s fine as well, but it can be like standing on the edge of a cliff. Step three is that the person becomes arrogant. They see most other people as a distraction, as sort of sub-human. This is where things start to go wrong. Step four is when the person decides that he knows what the best thing for everyone else to do is better than they do. And if they won’t do it, then he’ll make them do it.
Before long, you could very well have a person who, while he admits that it’s important to love your fellow-man in theory, in practice thinks that the best thing to do is to start the Spanish Inquisition. The fact that the Spanish Inquisition ever existed, started by people who professed “love one another” as a core tenet of their faith, shows that this can happen...
Those are good examples. Though I guess whether this is possible depends on your definition of “forget”. Speaking of the Spanish Inquisition, I am of the opinion that the Inquisitors did not forget their core tenets but that further knowledge (however flawed) gave them new means to interpret the original tenets. You could suggest that this re-interpretation was exactly what Jesus wanted to keep people from doing, of course. The question I ask Christians, then, is “What knowledge is acceptable and how should it be attained when God doesn’t encourage the utilization of all knowledge?” This would certainly be an important question for theists to answer, and may be relatively simple. I can already guess a few possible answers.
I’m assuming “to act as though ignorant of the principle in question”.
I don’t think its the knowledge that’s dangerous, in itself. I think it’s the arrogance. Or the sophisticated argument that starts with principles X and Y and leads to actions that directly contradict principle X.
For example; consider the following principles:
Love thy neighbour as thyself
Anyone who does not profess will be tortured terribly in Hell after death, beyond anything mortals can do
That’s enough to lead to the Inquisition, by this route:
Looking at Principle 2, I do not wish myself, or those that I love to enter Hell. Considering Principle 1, I must try to save everyone from that fate, by any means possible. I must therefore attempt to convert everyone to .
(Consideration of various means snipped for brevity)
Yet there may be some people who refuse to convert, even in the face of all these arguments. In such a case, would torture be acceptable? If a person who is not tortured does not repent, then he is doomed to what is worse than a mere few months, even a mere few years of torture; he is doomed to an eternity of torture. If a person is tortured into repentance, then he is saved an eternity of torture—a net gain for the victim. If he is tortured and does not repent, then he experiences an eternity of torture in any case—in that case, he is at least no worse off. So a tortured victim is at worst no worse off, and at best a good deal better off, than a man who does not repent. However, care must be taken to ensure that the victim does not die during torture, but before repenting.
Better yet, the mere rumour of torture may lead some to repent more swiftly. Thus, judicious use of torture becomes a moral imperative.
(As an exercise, incidentally, can you spot the flaw in that chain of reasoning?)
And then you have the Inquisitors, and fear and terror and sharp knives in dark rooms...
It’s worth noting that if the person successfully “found knowledge”, they are in fact correct (unless it was irrelevant knowledge, I guess.)
Historical evidence suggests that people get to step 4 before correctly finding knowledge quite often. The Spanish Inquisition is a shining example. Or communism—in its original inception, it was supposed to be a utopian paradise where everyone does what work is necessary, and enjoys fair benefits therefrom.
I suspect that a common failure mode is that one fails to take into account that many people are doing that which they are doing because they are quite happy to do it. They’ve smoothed out any sharp corners in their lifestyle that they could manage to smooth out, and see little benefit in changing to a new lifestyle, with new and unexpected sharp corners that will need smoothing.
I would therefore recommend being very, very cautious about assuming that one has successfully found sufficient knowledge.
I agree there’s a common failure mode here—I’d be inclined to say it’s simple overconfidence, and maybe overestimating your rationality relative to everyone else.
Still, if they’re successful...
Even then, I’d most likely object to their attempts to try to dictate the actions of others; because of the common failure mode, my heuristic is to assign a very strong prior to the hypothesis that they are unsuccessful. Also, trying force has some fairly substantial negative effects; any positive effects of their proposed behaviour change would have to be significant to overcome that.
However, if they are willing to try to change the actions of others through simple persuasion without resorting to force, then I would not object. And if their proposed course of action is significantly better, then I would expect persuasion to work in at least some cases; and then these cases can be used as evidence for the proposed course of action working.
To be fair, we may have different interventions in mind here. I would also expect someone who genuinely found knowledge to use “soft force”, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
However, if forcing people to do things really helps, I’m all for intervention. Addicts, for example.
I was thinking armies, secret police, so on and so forth, forcing an entire country to one’s will.
Hmmm. I hadn’t thought of addicts. You make a good point.
I think I might need to re-evaluate my heuristics on this point.
This can never be put into practice. A person can try to find knowledge, but there is nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge—any such attempts collapse into part of trying to find knowledge. There is no way of getting to a meta-level from which you can judge whether your efforts bore fruit. The ladder has no rungs.
raises eyebrows
You’re saying it’s impossible for any evidence to change your estimate of whether something will help people?
No, just that while you can try harder to find knowledge, there isn’t a separate metalevel at which seeing if you really have knowledge is a different activity.
If you can receive information that provides strong Bayesian evidence that you’re belief is true, how is there “nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge”?
I don’t know that much about Mormonism, but isn’t it possible that there are multiple different sects of it, just like there are multiple sects of conventional Christianity, Judaism, Wicca, etc. ? In this case, each member of a sect would see himself as the One True Mormon (tm), and would be technically correct, despite believing in different things than members of other sects.
Mormonism is much more structured then that. There are different sects but those sects are different churches, both of us come from the LDS church, which is the largest and the one that everyone thinks of when they say Mormon (unless they are thinking of the polygamous FLDS).
There are those that call themselves New Order Mormons which are within the LDS church, by which they mean they don’t believe in any of the truth claims of the church but like the culture (or something like that, I am sure I am taking what they say out of its “rich contextual setting”).
Thanks, that was informative ! So, I assume that the LDS is managed by the Prophet, similarly to how the Catholic Church is managed by the Pope ? I don’t mean to imply that the beliefs and the divine status (or lack thereof) of the two are equivalent, I’m merely comparing their places on the org chart.
Although, now that I think about it, even the Catholics have their sub-sects. For example, while the Pope is officially against contraception, many (if not most) American Catholics choose to ignore that part of the doctrine, and IIRC there are even some nuns actively campaigning to make it more accessible.
If memory serves, the President of the (LDS) Church, his advisors, and the members of the church’s senior leadership council (called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) all hold the title of prophet—specifically “prophet, seer, and revelator”. That doesn’t necessarily carry all the implications that “prophet” might outside of an Mormon context, though. One of the quirks of Mormonism is a certain degree of rank inflation compared to most Abrahamic religions; almost all male Mormons enter what the religion calls an order of priesthood) at the age of twelve, for example, and a second when they reach eighteen.
But yes, for most purposes the President of the Church is loosely equivalent to the Catholic Pope. Things get a little funky as you get into lower ranks: the LDS org chart is much more complicated than the Catholic, with several layers of leadership councils and more titles than I can easily keep straight. Though it hasn’t developed the numerous unofficial and semi-official leadership roles that Catholicism has, being a smaller and younger religion.
I am mostly just answering direct questions, I am horrible at walking away when questions are asked. Since this conversation is far outside of the norms of the group, I will do so in a private message if atomliner wants to continue the conversation. If he would rather it be public I would be willing to set up a blog for the purpose of continuing this conversation.
This here is an excellent point. I’m pretty sure all religions have “unofficial” doctrines; certainly it would fit my experience. Such doctrines have no bearing on the truth of the “official” doctrines, technically, but they are identified with the religion by believers and unbelievers alike.
That said, while I’m hardly an authority on Mormonism, I would guess your beliefs were more, well, strange than average—simply because your deconversion selects for unconvincing and dissonant beliefs.
Please show what I said (excluding the reference to Confucius) is not clearly based in scripture, Numbers 11:29 may be helpful.
Yes. that is unreasonable to assume
Absolutely, if Jesus says something to a prophet then what Jesus said was correct. What the prophet thinks and communicates in addition to that particular thing has no guarantee of being correct and is very likely to be at least partially incorrect. The prophet will place the words of Jesus in the framework of other beliefs and cultural constructs in the world in which they live. Prophets just as much as anyone else do not receive the fullness at once, meaning that of necessity some of their beliefs (and therefore some of their teachings) will not be correct, excluding Jesus. Prophets are not perfect any more then anyone else is perfect and we are supposed to use the light of the Spirit to discern the truth ourselves rather then follow the prophet without thought or seeking to know for ourselves. In other words, telling people to seek God as to every question is calling them to be prophets.
Because I have not stood in the Divine Council and so I know that not only do I not know the secrets of God I also do not have a complete understanding of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, of loving God or of loving my neighbor as myself, nor will I until, either in this life or the next, I hear the Father say Ye shall have eternal life and receive an end to my faith.
Why is that relevant? Older than you.
I apologize. I had thought that you were using the three scriptures I quoted earlier to support the point that the scriptures confirms that atheists can be as happy, healthy, and moral as theists. In actuality, you were using them to describe how blessings come from following the commandments and not just from belief in the first two cases and in the third case you were supporting the idea that God understands it is difficult for people to distinguish truth from error.
The point I made about our conversation still stands, however. Your goal seems to be “Make atomliner look like he didn’t believe in things Mormons should” while my goal is “show I was a normal Latter-day Saint before losing my faith”.
I have two problems with this. The first is that I do not see any scriptures supporting this view clearly. How was I supposed to know this? No one teaches in church that prophets can teach false doctrine. In my experience with hundreds of active Latter-day Saints, THIS belief is atypical. In fact I just got called out by a bunch of mission buddies for saying this on Facebook, that the prophets can sometimes lead us astray (we were talking about gay marriage), and I got called an apostate outright.
My second problem is that I said false doctrine, not small inaccuracies attributed to translation error. You think that a prophet could speak to Jesus Christ face-to-face and then write up entire discourses on stuff like Adam-God theory, blood atonement, doctrinal racism and affirm boldly that this is the truth to the Saints? God must have a very strange way of picking his prophets, it seems like he would want to call people who wouldn’t invent their own ideas and who would simply repeat to the Saints what was said to them by Christ. I mean, does God want the truth expressed accurately or not? Were the prophets really the best people available for this task?? They have a terrible track record.
Great. That still makes no logical sense to ME since I don’t believe in any of that. So, failure on your part to defend this point from an objective argument.
You are saying in your experience Mormonism is obviously a certain way and I’m saying in my experience Mormonism was not that way… I was wondering how much of a difference there is in our amount of experience. Did you hold all of these liberal Mormon beliefs when you were 21?
Regardless of its scriptural authenticity, it is a common claim. I’m not surprised atomliner thought this at some point.
[Disclaimer: I’m extrapolating from mainstream Christianity here. It’s possible this does not apply to Mormons.]
Who authorizes messengers from God? It’s not like He has a public key, after all...
God obviously.
There are actually quite a few rules given to determine if a messenger is from God. Jesus for instance said “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself”, then there is the qualification in Deuteronomy, the requirement in John, the experiment in Alma, the promise in Moroni, and some details in the D&C. It is somewhat of a bootstrapping problem as one must already trust one of those sources, or the person presenting those sources, enough to move forward in trying to verify the source and messenger.
Well, the usual method is to simply check if they’re consistent with earlier messages. Which is great until you remember that the Devil can quote scripture to his purpose.
The canonical method, on the other hand, is to check if the messenger professes Jesus as Lord, since as we all know demons can’t do that, so by process of elimination it must be an angel (and therefore true.)
No, I don’t know what you’re supposed to do if it’s a hallucination.
Can’t they?
Nope. Well-known fact.
Seriously, that’s official doctrine, that is. Actually, come to think, don’t some demons call him Lord in the NT?
Jesus goes so far as to discourage both humans and demons from telling people about his Messiahship; demons tended to be pretty quick to start yelling about how he was the messiah/could torment them /etc. Legion is the most memorable case, but I seem to remember an incident from earlier on in Jesus’ life when he had to silence a demon that was revealing his identity (maybe it was in Luke?).
And yet, I’ve read that piece of, um, advice in books by at least one actual exorcist; a pretty high-level one at that. It appears to be the official Thing To Do in response to a questionably divine visitation.
Yes, I read books on exorcism. Don’t judge me.
Hey, people make mistakes. That it’s fairly easy to come to erroneous conclusions on these topics should be evident from the JoD itself.