Wouldn’t that presuppose that “cooperation is the source/the sine qua non of all good”?
Sure, we can redefine some version of ethics in such a cooperative light, and then conclude that many agents don’t give a hoot about such ethics, or regard it in the cold, hard terms of game theory, e.g. negotiating/extortion strategies only.
Judging actions as “good” or “bad” doesn’t prima facie depend entirely on cooperation, the good of your race, or whatever. For example, if you were a part of a planet-eating race, consuming all matter/life in its path—while being very friendly amongst themselves—couldn’t it be considered ethically “good” even from a human perspective to killswitch your own race? And “bad” from the moral standpoint of the planet-eating race?
The easiest way to dissolve such obvious contradictions is to say that there is just not, in fact, a universal hierarchy ranking ethical systems universally, regardless of the nature of the (rational = capable reasoner) agent.
Doesn’t mean an agent isn’t allowed to strongly defend what it considers to be moral, to die for it, even.
Wouldn’t that presuppose that “cooperation is the source/the sine qua non of all good”?
The point is it doesn’t matter what you consider “good”; fighting people wont produce it (even if you value fighting people, because they will beat you and you’ll be unable to fight.)
I’m not saying your goals should be ethical; I’m saying you should be ethical in order to achieve your goals.
Ethically “good” = enabling cooperation, if you are not cooperating you must be “fighting”?
Those are evidently only rough approximations of social dynamics even just in a human context. Would it be good to cooperate with an invading army, or to cooperate with the resistance? The one with an opposing goal, so as a patriot, the opposing army it is, eh?
Is it good to cooperate with someone bullying you, or torturing you? What about game theory, if you’re not “cooperating” (for your value of cooperating), you must be “fighting”? What do you mean by fighting, physical altercations? Is a loan negotiation more like cooperation or more like fighting, and is it thus ethically good or bad, for your notion of “ethics = ways for agents with different goals to co-operate”?
It seems like a nice soundbite, but doesn’t make even cursory sense on further examination. I’m all for models that are as simple as possible, but no simpler. But cooperation as the definition of ethics? For you, maybe. Collaborateur!
Fighting in this context refers to anything analogous to defecting in a Prisoner’s Dilemma. You hurt the other side but encourage them to defect in order to punish you. You should strive for the Pareto Optimimum.
Maybe this would be clearer if we talked in terms of Pebblesorters?
Wouldn’t that presuppose that “cooperation is the source/the sine qua non of all good”?
Sure, we can redefine some version of ethics in such a cooperative light, and then conclude that many agents don’t give a hoot about such ethics, or regard it in the cold, hard terms of game theory, e.g. negotiating/extortion strategies only.
Judging actions as “good” or “bad” doesn’t prima facie depend entirely on cooperation, the good of your race, or whatever. For example, if you were a part of a planet-eating race, consuming all matter/life in its path—while being very friendly amongst themselves—couldn’t it be considered ethically “good” even from a human perspective to killswitch your own race? And “bad” from the moral standpoint of the planet-eating race?
The easiest way to dissolve such obvious contradictions is to say that there is just not, in fact, a universal hierarchy ranking ethical systems universally, regardless of the nature of the (rational = capable reasoner) agent.
Doesn’t mean an agent isn’t allowed to strongly defend what it considers to be moral, to die for it, even.
The point is it doesn’t matter what you consider “good”; fighting people wont produce it (even if you value fighting people, because they will beat you and you’ll be unable to fight.)
I’m not saying your goals should be ethical; I’m saying you should be ethical in order to achieve your goals.
That seems very simplistic.
Ethically “good” = enabling cooperation, if you are not cooperating you must be “fighting”?
Those are evidently only rough approximations of social dynamics even just in a human context. Would it be good to cooperate with an invading army, or to cooperate with the resistance? The one with an opposing goal, so as a patriot, the opposing army it is, eh?
Is it good to cooperate with someone bullying you, or torturing you? What about game theory, if you’re not “cooperating” (for your value of cooperating), you must be “fighting”? What do you mean by fighting, physical altercations? Is a loan negotiation more like cooperation or more like fighting, and is it thus ethically good or bad, for your notion of “ethics = ways for agents with different goals to co-operate”?
It seems like a nice soundbite, but doesn’t make even cursory sense on further examination. I’m all for models that are as simple as possible, but no simpler. But cooperation as the definition of ethics? For you, maybe. Collaborateur!
Fighting in this context refers to anything analogous to defecting in a Prisoner’s Dilemma. You hurt the other side but encourage them to defect in order to punish you. You should strive for the Pareto Optimimum.
Maybe this would be clearer if we talked in terms of Pebblesorters?