You’re right that this is hotly debated, because some people are very confident that there is a systematic process of kowtowing to Islamic immigrants (because of some sort of left-leaning ideology) and some other people are very confident that there isn’t (and that the first lot are claiming there is because of some sort of right-leaning ideology).
It seems to me that the sensible thing to do, if you’re aware of this hot debate and want to avoid a firefight, is not
to make a post that casually asserts one side’s preferred position, and then when questioned say you don’t want to argue about it,
but
to refrain from making unnecessary hot-button statements in the first place.
I was making the claim with full confidence because I see it confirmed by both sides. I’ve seen many cases of pro-multiculturalism speakers not denying that this thing happens, but actually being proud of it and claiming that it’s a good thing, and it would be wrong to “force” our way of life onto them.
I’m not shying away from discussion, and I’m happy to listen to and reply to comments, I just wanted to accentuate to not go too far off-topic.
I see it confirmed by both sides [...] actually being proud of it and claiming that it’s a good thing
I don’t believe you.
More precisely, let me remind you of your original wording: “and by the predominantly left-leaning political elite in Europe encouraging the acceptance of and submission to Islamic culture in Europe instead of encouraging the immigrants to abandon their culture for the culture of the host nations”.
I can readily believe that you find people on the side you characterize as “left-leaning political elite”[1] encouraging acceptance of Muslims and encouraging others not to try to make them abandon their culture.
What I don’t believe is that anyone in that group[2] proudly endorsing submission to Islamic culture in Europe.
Note that this stronger claim, or at least something like it, is actually needed by the argument you were making. You were considering the possibility that ISIS/ISIL/IS/Daesh are doing what they do to “make their ideology more dominant”, and saying that’s probably wrong because that’s happening already without the war and murder and whatnot, thanks to the “left-leaning political elite”. But Muslims merely moving from one place to another and not being made to abandon their culture won’t do much to make Islamic ideology (still less ISIS’s ideology, which is by no means the same thing) dominant; what that would require is precisely for other nations to, as you put it, submit.
I’m aware that outright disbelief is kinda rude, so let me emphasize that I’m very willing to be corrected. Show me some “left-leaning political elites” saying that we should submit to Islamic culture, that we should do things that would help make ISIS’s ideology more dominant in the world, and I’ll retract and recant and apologize.
[1] Not that that’s actually a good description. The people saying such things are by no means consistently part of any sort of elite.
[2] Well … generally you can find some people who will say almost anything. So make it “more than a tiny fraction of people in that group”.
that we should do things that would help make ISIS’s ideology more dominant in the world
I think this is where you misunderstood me. I never claimed, nor do I believe that European politicians / European media promote that “we should help make ISIS’s ideology more dominant”. I was only talking about general mainstream Muslim culture which is promoted. And of course, the ideology of ISIS is very different from the mainstream Muslim culture, but I would guess that from a utilitarian point of view it might benefit ISIS if Europe had a mainstream Muslim culture rather than a non-Muslim culture.
I was only talking about general mainstream Muslim culture which is promoted.
Well, again, if you are saying that “left-leaning political elites” are promoting Muslim culture or openly encouraging it to be promoted, then I still simply don’t believe you.
I dare say it’s true that ISIS would prefer a mainstream Muslim Europe to a mostly Christian and secular Europe, and that it would generally prefer a more-Muslim Europe to a less-Muslim Europe. (Though … I wonder how true that is; they might actually prefer an aggressively anti-Muslim Europe with which they could have a glorious fight ending in the domination of ISIS-style Islam.) But a process whose best-case-for-ISIS outcome is a mainstream Muslim Europe in several decades (personally I think even that is a ludicrously paranoid scenario, but I hope we can at least agree that it’s the most ISIS could reasonably hope for from those “left-leaning political elites”) cannot possibly make it unnecessary for ISIS to act more drastically to spread their ideology.
they might actually prefer an aggressively anti-Muslim Europe with which they could have a glorious fight ending in the domination of ISIS-style Islam.
If you treat ISIS as a millennial cult, they expect an apocalyptic scenario where Europe/West are the bad guys with which they need to have an end-of-the-world battle. If the bad guys don’t show up, ISIS will be very disappointed :-/
Right. Which is why I am suggesting that if Val genuinely wanted to avoid distraction and dispute, s/he would have done better simply not to throw in that remark about “the predominantly left-leaning political elite in Europe encouraging the acceptance of and submission to Islamic culture in Europe”. It’s not like it was essential to the actual point Val was making.
You’re right that this is hotly debated, because some people are very confident that there is a systematic process of kowtowing to Islamic immigrants (because of some sort of left-leaning ideology) and some other people are very confident that there isn’t (and that the first lot are claiming there is because of some sort of right-leaning ideology).
It seems to me that the sensible thing to do, if you’re aware of this hot debate and want to avoid a firefight, is not
to make a post that casually asserts one side’s preferred position, and then when questioned say you don’t want to argue about it,
but
to refrain from making unnecessary hot-button statements in the first place.
I was making the claim with full confidence because I see it confirmed by both sides. I’ve seen many cases of pro-multiculturalism speakers not denying that this thing happens, but actually being proud of it and claiming that it’s a good thing, and it would be wrong to “force” our way of life onto them.
I’m not shying away from discussion, and I’m happy to listen to and reply to comments, I just wanted to accentuate to not go too far off-topic.
I don’t believe you.
More precisely, let me remind you of your original wording: “and by the predominantly left-leaning political elite in Europe encouraging the acceptance of and submission to Islamic culture in Europe instead of encouraging the immigrants to abandon their culture for the culture of the host nations”.
I can readily believe that you find people on the side you characterize as “left-leaning political elite”[1] encouraging acceptance of Muslims and encouraging others not to try to make them abandon their culture.
What I don’t believe is that anyone in that group[2] proudly endorsing submission to Islamic culture in Europe.
Note that this stronger claim, or at least something like it, is actually needed by the argument you were making. You were considering the possibility that ISIS/ISIL/IS/Daesh are doing what they do to “make their ideology more dominant”, and saying that’s probably wrong because that’s happening already without the war and murder and whatnot, thanks to the “left-leaning political elite”. But Muslims merely moving from one place to another and not being made to abandon their culture won’t do much to make Islamic ideology (still less ISIS’s ideology, which is by no means the same thing) dominant; what that would require is precisely for other nations to, as you put it, submit.
I’m aware that outright disbelief is kinda rude, so let me emphasize that I’m very willing to be corrected. Show me some “left-leaning political elites” saying that we should submit to Islamic culture, that we should do things that would help make ISIS’s ideology more dominant in the world, and I’ll retract and recant and apologize.
[1] Not that that’s actually a good description. The people saying such things are by no means consistently part of any sort of elite.
[2] Well … generally you can find some people who will say almost anything. So make it “more than a tiny fraction of people in that group”.
I think this is where you misunderstood me. I never claimed, nor do I believe that European politicians / European media promote that “we should help make ISIS’s ideology more dominant”. I was only talking about general mainstream Muslim culture which is promoted. And of course, the ideology of ISIS is very different from the mainstream Muslim culture, but I would guess that from a utilitarian point of view it might benefit ISIS if Europe had a mainstream Muslim culture rather than a non-Muslim culture.
Well, again, if you are saying that “left-leaning political elites” are promoting Muslim culture or openly encouraging it to be promoted, then I still simply don’t believe you.
I dare say it’s true that ISIS would prefer a mainstream Muslim Europe to a mostly Christian and secular Europe, and that it would generally prefer a more-Muslim Europe to a less-Muslim Europe. (Though … I wonder how true that is; they might actually prefer an aggressively anti-Muslim Europe with which they could have a glorious fight ending in the domination of ISIS-style Islam.) But a process whose best-case-for-ISIS outcome is a mainstream Muslim Europe in several decades (personally I think even that is a ludicrously paranoid scenario, but I hope we can at least agree that it’s the most ISIS could reasonably hope for from those “left-leaning political elites”) cannot possibly make it unnecessary for ISIS to act more drastically to spread their ideology.
No, the recruitment strategy of ISIS depends on Muslims not having a peaceful space in European culture.
If you treat ISIS as a millennial cult, they expect an apocalyptic scenario where Europe/West are the bad guys with which they need to have an end-of-the-world battle. If the bad guys don’t show up, ISIS will be very disappointed :-/
Each side’s preferred position already is a hot-button statement to the other.
Right. Which is why I am suggesting that if Val genuinely wanted to avoid distraction and dispute, s/he would have done better simply not to throw in that remark about “the predominantly left-leaning political elite in Europe encouraging the acceptance of and submission to Islamic culture in Europe”. It’s not like it was essential to the actual point Val was making.