I agree with you that a world where the personal and the political were distinct spheres that never met would probably be a better world. But in the world we live in, there are groups that are (1) identified by persona characteristics, and (2) oppressed in some sense by the mainstream. If those groups don’t conflate the personal and the political, they don’t have a workable roadmap to social change. In parallel, those who oppose the social changes are committed to reinforcing the distinction.
“Right wing freedom” is often freedom from politics, while “left wing freedom” is freedom to politics.
As you note, this formulation has a great deal of embedded status quo bias. In the US, a politician saying “I’m deeply religious.” is often perceived as making a non-political statement that he is a good person. Analytically, the perception is false—applause lights are a political act.
Keep in mind also that partisan electioneering (community organizer v. rich corporate executive) is not the same thing as politics. In the context of the quote under discussion, everything referenced by Hanson’s status-based analysis of human behavior should be understood as “political” analysis.
But in the world we live in, there are groups that are (1) identified by persona characteristics, and (2) oppressed in some sense by the mainstream. If those groups don’t conflate the personal and the political, they don’t have a workable roadmap to social change.
There is no reason to expect that politics somehow inherently favors the truly oppressed. In reality, groups that are strong have inherent advantages in politicking over groups that are weak. The real oppressed have low status, few allies, and no resources.
Rule of thumb: the group that everyone agrees is the most oppressed is not actually the most oppressed—at least, not any longer. The most oppressed group doesn’t have that kind of PR!
No one is claiming that “politics somehow favors the truly oppressed”, nor need they in order to argue that “the personal is political” [EDIT: in the sense that political activity can be necessary for personal-looking goals; the phrase can be understood in other ways]. What’s relevant is whether politics is necessary for the truly oppressed.
Hypothetical world: two subpopulations, the lucky Haves and the oppressed Have-Nots. Everything is harder for the Have-Nots because of explicitly discriminatory laws, casual tribal hatreds, lack of resources after historical oppression, widespread assumption that they’re inferior, etc. If the Have-Nots’ position is to improve, they will certainly need the discriminatory laws repealed, and it may be to their benefit for there to be anti-discrimination regulations. To get that, there will need to be politics. They will be at a disadvantage in any politicking, for sure, but they’re equally at a disadvantage in every other way they might try to improve their situation. Trying to get richer through innovation or trade; getting better-liked through personal interactions; persuading individuals to treat them better; all these things and more will tend to go badly for the Have-Nots, just as politicking will. They need politics even though politics doesn’t favour them.
Depending on lots of details, they might do better to begin by concentrating on things other than politics. Or not. The same goes for oppressed groups in the real world. So “the personal is political” might well turn out to be empirically wrong. But it isn’t refuted merely by observing that politics doesn’t inherently favour the oppressed.
(I agree with your last paragraph, with the proviso that a group that most people agree is most oppressed might actually be the most oppressed—if the people who don’t agree or don’t care treat them badly enough. I don’t know whether, or how often, this actually happens.)
My point is simply that the original quote is a roadmap for moving up the status ladder. Moving a group up the status ladder is hard to do deliberately and the insightful idea from the quote goes to the methodology of deliberate social engineering.
Like most social engineering techniques, it does not inherently favor any particular group.
I think you have a good point, I did miss his point, I seem to have different underlying assumptions.
Outside of war, and even in war the intention to win this or that goal matters surprisingly little, I do not think the change from oppressed to non-opressed group and back again is primarily the result of intentional human action aimed at changing such arrangements.
They aren’t utterly irrelevant but I do believe far stronger forces and the unforeseen consequences of our own actions are the game changers.
I certainly agree that most value change is not deliberately engineered ahead of time. But it has happened—and there are more effective and less effective ways to deliberately cause changes in values over time.
I think you are misunderstanding Multi’s point.
I agree with you that a world where the personal and the political were distinct spheres that never met would probably be a better world. But in the world we live in, there are groups that are (1) identified by persona characteristics, and (2) oppressed in some sense by the mainstream. If those groups don’t conflate the personal and the political, they don’t have a workable roadmap to social change. In parallel, those who oppose the social changes are committed to reinforcing the distinction.
As you note, this formulation has a great deal of embedded status quo bias. In the US, a politician saying “I’m deeply religious.” is often perceived as making a non-political statement that he is a good person. Analytically, the perception is false—applause lights are a political act.
Keep in mind also that partisan electioneering (community organizer v. rich corporate executive) is not the same thing as politics. In the context of the quote under discussion, everything referenced by Hanson’s status-based analysis of human behavior should be understood as “political” analysis.
There is no reason to expect that politics somehow inherently favors the truly oppressed. In reality, groups that are strong have inherent advantages in politicking over groups that are weak. The real oppressed have low status, few allies, and no resources.
Rule of thumb: the group that everyone agrees is the most oppressed is not actually the most oppressed—at least, not any longer. The most oppressed group doesn’t have that kind of PR!
No one is claiming that “politics somehow favors the truly oppressed”, nor need they in order to argue that “the personal is political” [EDIT: in the sense that political activity can be necessary for personal-looking goals; the phrase can be understood in other ways]. What’s relevant is whether politics is necessary for the truly oppressed.
Hypothetical world: two subpopulations, the lucky Haves and the oppressed Have-Nots. Everything is harder for the Have-Nots because of explicitly discriminatory laws, casual tribal hatreds, lack of resources after historical oppression, widespread assumption that they’re inferior, etc. If the Have-Nots’ position is to improve, they will certainly need the discriminatory laws repealed, and it may be to their benefit for there to be anti-discrimination regulations. To get that, there will need to be politics. They will be at a disadvantage in any politicking, for sure, but they’re equally at a disadvantage in every other way they might try to improve their situation. Trying to get richer through innovation or trade; getting better-liked through personal interactions; persuading individuals to treat them better; all these things and more will tend to go badly for the Have-Nots, just as politicking will. They need politics even though politics doesn’t favour them.
Depending on lots of details, they might do better to begin by concentrating on things other than politics. Or not. The same goes for oppressed groups in the real world. So “the personal is political” might well turn out to be empirically wrong. But it isn’t refuted merely by observing that politics doesn’t inherently favour the oppressed.
(I agree with your last paragraph, with the proviso that a group that most people agree is most oppressed might actually be the most oppressed—if the people who don’t agree or don’t care treat them badly enough. I don’t know whether, or how often, this actually happens.)
My point is simply that the original quote is a roadmap for moving up the status ladder. Moving a group up the status ladder is hard to do deliberately and the insightful idea from the quote goes to the methodology of deliberate social engineering.
Like most social engineering techniques, it does not inherently favor any particular group.
I think you have a good point, I did miss his point, I seem to have different underlying assumptions.
Outside of war, and even in war the intention to win this or that goal matters surprisingly little, I do not think the change from oppressed to non-opressed group and back again is primarily the result of intentional human action aimed at changing such arrangements.
They aren’t utterly irrelevant but I do believe far stronger forces and the unforeseen consequences of our own actions are the game changers.
I certainly agree that most value change is not deliberately engineered ahead of time. But it has happened—and there are more effective and less effective ways to deliberately cause changes in values over time.