The first example that comes to mind for me is the collapse of the Roman empire. The Romans might have been “bad”, being aggressive and expansionist, but the people they fell to were markedly worse from the perspective of truth seeking and pursuit of enlightenment, the standard Deutsch and curi are applying, and their replacements ushered in the Dark Ages.
But different conditions hold today. The Gothic armies were virtually identical to the armies of the earlier Celts/Gauls who the Romans had crushed; even the Magyars (~1500′s CE) used more or less the same tactics and organization as the Cimmerians (~ 700 BCE), though they did have stirrups, solid saddle trees, and stiff-tipped composite bows. Similarly, IIRC, the Roman armies didn’t make use of any major recent technological innovations. This no longer holds today; the idea of an army using technology hundreds of years old being a serious military threat to any modern nation is frankly ludicrous. Technological and scientific development has become much, much more important than it was during Roman times.
(And, btw, it’s not really accurate to say that, in practice, the barbarians were all that much much worse than the Romans in terms of development and innovation; technological development in Europe didn’t really slow down all that much during the Dark Ages and the Romans had very few scientific (as opposed to engineering) advances anyways- most of their scientific knowledge (not to mention their mythology, art, architecture, etc.) was borrowed from the Greeks.)
Yes, but the culture of enlightenment and innovation within Greek and Roman culture had already been falling apart from within. The culture of Classical Antiquity was outcompeted by less enlightened memes.
How so? I’m not sure when, specifically, you’re talking about, but the post-expansion Roman Empire still produced such noted philosophers as Marcus Aurelius, Apuleius, Boethius, St. Augustine, etc.
That was a position she had attributed to her in a book in which I first read about her; I no longer remember the details and may have been mistaken.
In any case, the development of new technology and naturalistic knowledge based on empirical investigation and mathematics declined in the Dark ages. Whether I was mistaken about Hypatia’s position in particular or not doesn’t change the issue of whether an inferior tradition of intellectual investigation replaced a superior one.
[An empirical outlook] was a position she [Hypatia] had attributed to her in a book in which I first read about her; I no longer remember the details and may have been mistaken.
Was it by any chance Cosmos by Carl Sagan? His treatment of the topic is complete nonsense. (I understand Sagan is held in some respect by many people here, but he definitely wasn’t above twisting facts and perpetuating myths to advance his agenda.) A good debunking of the whole “Hypatia as a rationalist martyr” myth can be found on Armarium Magnum.
That was a position she had attributed to her in a book in which I first read about her; I no longer remember the details and may have been mistaken.
In that case, I won’t update my beliefs. Was that from a blurb in a science textbook by chance? I too have been the victim of false history from my science textbooks.
In any case, the development of new technology and naturalistic knowledge based on empirical investigation and mathematics declined in the Dark ages.
What time period are you referring to when you use the term Dark Ages? If you are referring to the Middle Ages, then I disagree that it is an example of a time when a superior intellectual tradition was replaced by an inferior one (at least in terms of natural philosophy/science).
It was a history book (popular, not academic,) and it’s certainly possible that it was mistaken.
The limits of the Dark Ages are a matter of historical dispute, but for the purposes of this discussion, I suppose we could say about 5th to 11th century CE in Europe.
The limits of the Dark Ages are a matter of historical dispute, but for the purposes of this discussion, I suppose we could say about 5th to 11th century CE in Europe.
I agree that the Dark Ages had an inferior intellectual tradition than the Hellenistic Period, since the dates you stipulated would exclude Aquinas, Ockham, and Scotus. On the other hand, I am at a loss trying to think of 11th century technologies that weren’t equal to or superior than their 4th century counterparts.
Well of course the previously dominant branch of philosophy declined- that happens all the time in philosophy. But I don’t think that there’s grounds for proclaiming Hellenist philosophy to be significantly better than its successors: it was hardly empirical (Hypatia herself was an anti-empirical Platonist) and typically more concerned with e.g. confused explanations of the world in terms of a single property (all is fire! no, water!) or confusion regarding words (e.g. the Sorites paradox) than any kind of research valuable/relevant today.
And the group which continued the legacy of Hellenist/Roman thought, the Islamic world, did in fact continue and, IMHO, vastly augment the level of empirical thought; for example, it’s widely believed that the inventor of the Scientific Method was an Arab scientist, Alhazen. Even though Europe saw a drop in learning due to the collapse of the unsustainable centralized Roman economy and the resulting wars and deurbanization, all that occurred was that its knowledge was passed onto new civilizations large/wealthy/secure enough to support science/math/philosophy. (Specifically, Persia and Byzantium, and later the Caliphates.)
The technological and empirical tradition of Islam pretty much died out due to the success of The Incoherence of the Philosophers though. My point is that innovative and empirical traditions have given way in the past to memetically stronger anti-innovative traditions. That doesn’t mean that the same will happen to present day scientific culture, I highly doubt that would happen without some sort of catastrophic Black Swan event, but innovative traditions have not historically consistently beaten out non innovative ones.
But there were still significant Islamic achievements in science after The Incoherence of the Philosophers was published- e.g. Ibn Zuhr’s experimental scientific surgery, Ibn al-Nafis’s discovery of pulmonary circulation, etc. And The Incoherence of the Philosophers probably didn’t have much of an impact, at least immediately, on Islamic science- Al-Ghazali only critiqued Avicenna’s philosophy, while expressing support for science.
I think a more persuasive reason for the decline of Islamic science is the repeated invasions by outsiders (Crusaders, Mongols, Beduins, and the Reconquista, plus the Black Plague), which pretty much ended the golden age of Islamic civilization. But today, as I said earlier, there are no powerful yet unknown barbarian hordes around today.
(Though yes, I agree wrt Black Swans like the Black Plague.)
I think this is caused by the fact that innovative societies are that way because their more open to new ideas. But being open to new ideas means that your memetic defenses are by definition weaker.
Notice also that innovative societies generally aren’t defeated until they stop innovating.
The “Hypatia as a rationalist hero” trope is one of those awful historical myths that just refuse to die out. Armarium Magnum has a detailed debunking of the story.
The first example that comes to mind for me is the collapse of the Roman empire. The Romans might have been “bad”, being aggressive and expansionist, but the people they fell to were markedly worse from the perspective of truth seeking and pursuit of enlightenment, the standard Deutsch and curi are applying, and their replacements ushered in the Dark Ages.
But different conditions hold today. The Gothic armies were virtually identical to the armies of the earlier Celts/Gauls who the Romans had crushed; even the Magyars (~1500′s CE) used more or less the same tactics and organization as the Cimmerians (~ 700 BCE), though they did have stirrups, solid saddle trees, and stiff-tipped composite bows. Similarly, IIRC, the Roman armies didn’t make use of any major recent technological innovations. This no longer holds today; the idea of an army using technology hundreds of years old being a serious military threat to any modern nation is frankly ludicrous. Technological and scientific development has become much, much more important than it was during Roman times.
(And, btw, it’s not really accurate to say that, in practice, the barbarians were all that much much worse than the Romans in terms of development and innovation; technological development in Europe didn’t really slow down all that much during the Dark Ages and the Romans had very few scientific (as opposed to engineering) advances anyways- most of their scientific knowledge (not to mention their mythology, art, architecture, etc.) was borrowed from the Greeks.)
Yes, but the culture of enlightenment and innovation within Greek and Roman culture had already been falling apart from within. The culture of Classical Antiquity was outcompeted by less enlightened memes.
How so? I’m not sure when, specifically, you’re talking about, but the post-expansion Roman Empire still produced such noted philosophers as Marcus Aurelius, Apuleius, Boethius, St. Augustine, etc.
I’m thinking of the decline of Hellenist philosophy, especially the mathematical and empirical outlooks propounded by those such as Hypatia.
As far as I know, Hypatia was a Neoplatonist like Saint Augustine. What evidence do you know of that she had an empirical outlook?
That was a position she had attributed to her in a book in which I first read about her; I no longer remember the details and may have been mistaken.
In any case, the development of new technology and naturalistic knowledge based on empirical investigation and mathematics declined in the Dark ages. Whether I was mistaken about Hypatia’s position in particular or not doesn’t change the issue of whether an inferior tradition of intellectual investigation replaced a superior one.
Was it by any chance Cosmos by Carl Sagan? His treatment of the topic is complete nonsense. (I understand Sagan is held in some respect by many people here, but he definitely wasn’t above twisting facts and perpetuating myths to advance his agenda.) A good debunking of the whole “Hypatia as a rationalist martyr” myth can be found on Armarium Magnum.
I’m pretty sure I’ve never read Cosmos, so no, I don’t think so. If it’s a myth, he’s not the only one perpetuating it.
Read Cosmos? Once again I feel antiquated.
In that case, I won’t update my beliefs. Was that from a blurb in a science textbook by chance? I too have been the victim of false history from my science textbooks.
What time period are you referring to when you use the term Dark Ages? If you are referring to the Middle Ages, then I disagree that it is an example of a time when a superior intellectual tradition was replaced by an inferior one (at least in terms of natural philosophy/science).
It was a history book (popular, not academic,) and it’s certainly possible that it was mistaken.
The limits of the Dark Ages are a matter of historical dispute, but for the purposes of this discussion, I suppose we could say about 5th to 11th century CE in Europe.
I agree that the Dark Ages had an inferior intellectual tradition than the Hellenistic Period, since the dates you stipulated would exclude Aquinas, Ockham, and Scotus. On the other hand, I am at a loss trying to think of 11th century technologies that weren’t equal to or superior than their 4th century counterparts.
Well of course the previously dominant branch of philosophy declined- that happens all the time in philosophy. But I don’t think that there’s grounds for proclaiming Hellenist philosophy to be significantly better than its successors: it was hardly empirical (Hypatia herself was an anti-empirical Platonist) and typically more concerned with e.g. confused explanations of the world in terms of a single property (all is fire! no, water!) or confusion regarding words (e.g. the Sorites paradox) than any kind of research valuable/relevant today.
And the group which continued the legacy of Hellenist/Roman thought, the Islamic world, did in fact continue and, IMHO, vastly augment the level of empirical thought; for example, it’s widely believed that the inventor of the Scientific Method was an Arab scientist, Alhazen. Even though Europe saw a drop in learning due to the collapse of the unsustainable centralized Roman economy and the resulting wars and deurbanization, all that occurred was that its knowledge was passed onto new civilizations large/wealthy/secure enough to support science/math/philosophy. (Specifically, Persia and Byzantium, and later the Caliphates.)
The technological and empirical tradition of Islam pretty much died out due to the success of The Incoherence of the Philosophers though. My point is that innovative and empirical traditions have given way in the past to memetically stronger anti-innovative traditions. That doesn’t mean that the same will happen to present day scientific culture, I highly doubt that would happen without some sort of catastrophic Black Swan event, but innovative traditions have not historically consistently beaten out non innovative ones.
But there were still significant Islamic achievements in science after The Incoherence of the Philosophers was published- e.g. Ibn Zuhr’s experimental scientific surgery, Ibn al-Nafis’s discovery of pulmonary circulation, etc. And The Incoherence of the Philosophers probably didn’t have much of an impact, at least immediately, on Islamic science- Al-Ghazali only critiqued Avicenna’s philosophy, while expressing support for science.
I think a more persuasive reason for the decline of Islamic science is the repeated invasions by outsiders (Crusaders, Mongols, Beduins, and the Reconquista, plus the Black Plague), which pretty much ended the golden age of Islamic civilization. But today, as I said earlier, there are no powerful yet unknown barbarian hordes around today.
(Though yes, I agree wrt Black Swans like the Black Plague.)
I think this is caused by the fact that innovative societies are that way because their more open to new ideas. But being open to new ideas means that your memetic defenses are by definition weaker.
Notice also that innovative societies generally aren’t defeated until they stop innovating.
The “Hypatia as a rationalist hero” trope is one of those awful historical myths that just refuse to die out. Armarium Magnum has a detailed debunking of the story.