As PUA advocates like pjeby or HughRistik would probably remark, by itself this (neutral, relatievly inoffensive, moderately useful) statement might tell us a little about what “Game” is—but in context, it instead says volumes about what a miserable heartless shit the author is :)
I mean, anyone who’s read him has no doubt that he would treat actually physically unattractive women as… subhuman, although the statement by itself only has that connotation for those unfortunate enough to be familiar with his views.
has that connotation for those unfortunate enough to be familiar with his views.
On the contrary I think many more people should be reading Roissy. People here especially. Try out his advice, experiment with it and other variants extensively. If it doesn’t work no biggie try something else, but do try it in good faith. I give this advice because this is how I massively improved my own romantic life. Authors like Roissy, Mystery and Athol Kay gave me a good map to understand social and sexual dynamics that mystified me before.
Currently I say the subtitle of his blog is perfectly accurate. There are a whole lot of pretty lies out there, bad advice that is in fact anti-knowledge when it comes to sex and dating. Some of it is well meaning but obsolete, crafted to reality that no longer exists, but some is created with the full knowledge it will harm its carriers. Heartiste demolishes many of them with the sadistic glee they deserve.
I doubt the pretty lies are doing much good because we see they don’t condem other things that contribute to the evils they supposedly fight. I mistrust the pretty lies as the incentives working on those who craft them are perverse. I condem the pretty lies because I see friends making stupid decisions based on them that end up wrecking their lives.
I hate the pretty lies because my belief in them was rewarded by stagnation, blindness and pain.
I wouldn’t have argued this in such vivid fashion if I wasn’t ticked off at how casually you dump boo lights when talking about a guy I’m pretty sure is on net doing something good.
I’d like to know what you think of this (unfortunately long) piece arguing (persuasively IMO) that Mystery/Roissy-style PUA is solving the wrong problem and a memetic hazard.
The right thing for these guys to do would be to deal with these core issues of low self-worth feelings and their inferiority feelings so that they can fix them once and for all. What pickup teaches them to do however is not to fix feelings but instead to switch from their current faulty coping strategy, which is surrender, to another faulty coping strategy of overcompensation. Using overcompensation, they repress these unwanted feelings with defense mechanisms so that they end up blocking themselves from consciously accessing this self-hatred. They learn to rationalize away and deny their feelings of low self-worth. They learn to project away their feelings of inferiority and self-hatred onto others. (Ever wonder why pickup artists develop this fanatical hatred of beta males? It’s their hatred of the beta traits they fear still exist within themselves, so they try to destroy these unwanted traits by first projecting them onto other male targets and then destroying those other targets.) They also learn to use another defense mechanism of intellectualization to cope with these low self-worth feelings, which is where all the mental masturbation and books on evolutionary psychology, animal behavior, persuasion, sales, New Age thinking and success literature like Tony Robbins comes in (not that there’s anything inherently wrong with any of this literature but rather in the way they are being used in this speak instance as a way to avoid fixing core issues).
Shevek saw that he had touched in these men an impersonal animosity that went very deep. Apparently they.. …contained a woman, a suppressed, silenced, bestialized woman, a fury in a cage. He had no right to tease them. They knew no relation but possession. They were possessed.
The right thing for these guys to do would be to deal with these core issues of low self-worth feelings and their inferiority feelings so that they can fix them once and for all. What pickup teaches them to do however is not to fix feelings but instead to switch from their current faulty coping strategy, which is surrender, to another faulty coping strategy of overcompensation… It’s their hatred of the beta traits they fear still exist within themselves, so they try to destroy these unwanted traits by first projecting them onto other male targets and then destroying those other targets.
Don’t know about him, but I fully agree with it; I’ve read a fair amount of rants about this problem. I’ve also had my own story of dealing with low self-worth and alienation, although it didn’t end in a heterosexual relationship :)
Do you think that people like pjeby give worse advice, then? I don’t think so; I think there must be a lot of good, competent PUA teachers out there who discard shock value and over-the-top cynicism for actually helping people. With actually benevolent intentions. Is that so unrealistic?
but some is created with the full knowledge it will harm its carriers
[citation needed]
I see friends making stupid decisions based on them that end up wrecking their lives
[citation needed]
I hate the pretty lies because my belief in them was rewarded by stagnation, blindness and pain.
Ok, now we’re getting closer. I sympathize with you, just as I try to sympathize with everyone who says they’ve been hurt or fucked over or betrayed. And I would feel wrong it I turned a friend away with some dismissive/inconsiderate talk.
However, could you please admit that while your hurtful experience might bring you closer to the situation emotionally, it certainly introduces some amount of bias and one-sidedness to your perception?
However, could you please admit that while your hurtful experience might bring you closer to the situation emotionally, it certainly introduces some amount of bias and one-sidedness to your perception?
Yes of course, it is why I made this post recently. People should be aware of the possibility of self-serving rationalizations by people advocating changes in sexual or social norms.
Konk, can you make a list of all the pretty lies, their consequences, the true facts, and the other things that don’t get condemned? I’m sure Roissy or someone has such a list also, but I’d like to see you restate it.
but in context, it instead says volumes about what a miserable heartless shit the author is :)
I don’t see him advocating you treat ugly women badly. My model of Roissy has him ignoring ugly women or interacting with them like he would other people he doesn’t want to have sex with.
Link to him saying ONE positive thing about interacting with women he doesn’t find physically attractive. In a professional setting, a social one, whatever.
First, there’s quite a bit about ev-psych and politics and such. Second, I’d rather read a blog about love and fail to get sex, than read a blog that offers me all the sex in the world in exchange for admitting that love is a delusion.
I’ve judged the connotations of those statements by him to be very different. Could you please link to them? I bet like half of it is “Love can exist before a woman is like 40 and she hits The Wall, at which point it’s retarded for a man to care about her while he could be chasing younger girls, and all she can be is a mother.”
I mean, anyone who’s read him has no doubt that he would treat actually physically unattractive women as… subhuman
I read him and I strongly disagree with this statement. You confuse his online style of writing for the actual man. He does not advocate treating fat ugly women badly, he merely advocates not giving them the illusion that they are just as desirable on the sexual marketplace as other women, thus robbing them of the incentive to improve and the ideologies such delusions empower.
It seems to me that there are a lot of people telling fat women that they’re worthless in the sexual marketplace, and rather few saying anything else.
I know a moderate number of fat women who apparently have happy marriages and (from what they tell me) active sex lives.
Possibly of interest: Fat Sex—fat women discuss their sex lives, which cover the region of possibility pretty well, including lots of men are attracted, true love, relationships are difficult, and nobody’s interested. The only way I can see that those women are different from thin women is that I don’t think thin women ever attract men who don’t want to be seen with them in public—and not all fat women run into that particular problem, just some of them.
Roissy just doesn’t seem to be living in the same universe I do.
Hmmm, I’m sure I’ve seen Roissy arguing that unattractive women often can’t do much to improve their appearance—that makeup etc is pointless, and that women without (for example) ideal bone stucture are unattractive (see the dating market value test). There is therefore not much room for improvement for many women. Athol Kay, in contrast, seems to think that many currently unattractive women can improve.
As PUA advocates like pjeby or HughRistik would probably remark, by itself this (neutral, relatievly inoffensive, moderately useful) statement might tell us a little about what “Game” is—but in context, it instead says volumes about what a miserable heartless shit the author is :)
I mean, anyone who’s read him has no doubt that he would treat actually physically unattractive women as… subhuman, although the statement by itself only has that connotation for those unfortunate enough to be familiar with his views.
On the contrary I think many more people should be reading Roissy. People here especially. Try out his advice, experiment with it and other variants extensively. If it doesn’t work no biggie try something else, but do try it in good faith. I give this advice because this is how I massively improved my own romantic life. Authors like Roissy, Mystery and Athol Kay gave me a good map to understand social and sexual dynamics that mystified me before.
Currently I say the subtitle of his blog is perfectly accurate. There are a whole lot of pretty lies out there, bad advice that is in fact anti-knowledge when it comes to sex and dating. Some of it is well meaning but obsolete, crafted to reality that no longer exists, but some is created with the full knowledge it will harm its carriers. Heartiste demolishes many of them with the sadistic glee they deserve.
I doubt the pretty lies are doing much good because we see they don’t condem other things that contribute to the evils they supposedly fight. I mistrust the pretty lies as the incentives working on those who craft them are perverse. I condem the pretty lies because I see friends making stupid decisions based on them that end up wrecking their lives.
I hate the pretty lies because my belief in them was rewarded by stagnation, blindness and pain.
I wouldn’t have argued this in such vivid fashion if I wasn’t ticked off at how casually you dump boo lights when talking about a guy I’m pretty sure is on net doing something good.
I’d like to know what you think of this (unfortunately long) piece arguing (persuasively IMO) that Mystery/Roissy-style PUA is solving the wrong problem and a memetic hazard.
Ursula Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Don’t know about him, but I fully agree with it; I’ve read a fair amount of rants about this problem. I’ve also had my own story of dealing with low self-worth and alienation, although it didn’t end in a heterosexual relationship :)
(sorry about the troll toll, btw)
Do you think that people like pjeby give worse advice, then? I don’t think so; I think there must be a lot of good, competent PUA teachers out there who discard shock value and over-the-top cynicism for actually helping people. With actually benevolent intentions. Is that so unrealistic?
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
Ok, now we’re getting closer. I sympathize with you, just as I try to sympathize with everyone who says they’ve been hurt or fucked over or betrayed. And I would feel wrong it I turned a friend away with some dismissive/inconsiderate talk.
However, could you please admit that while your hurtful experience might bring you closer to the situation emotionally, it certainly introduces some amount of bias and one-sidedness to your perception?
Yes of course, it is why I made this post recently. People should be aware of the possibility of self-serving rationalizations by people advocating changes in sexual or social norms.
Konk, can you make a list of all the pretty lies, their consequences, the true facts, and the other things that don’t get condemned? I’m sure Roissy or someone has such a list also, but I’d like to see you restate it.
I don’t see him advocating you treat ugly women badly. My model of Roissy has him ignoring ugly women or interacting with them like he would other people he doesn’t want to have sex with.
Link to him saying ONE positive thing about interacting with women he doesn’t find physically attractive. In a professional setting, a social one, whatever.
Does he say one positive thing about interacting with other men? Its a blog about sex.
First, there’s quite a bit about ev-psych and politics and such. Second, I’d rather read a blog about love and fail to get sex, than read a blog that offers me all the sex in the world in exchange for admitting that love is a delusion.
He does say love exists. Just that it is temporary.
See his posts on his positive experiences with having “long term” (six months to a few years) relationships and the post on women in love.
I’ve judged the connotations of those statements by him to be very different. Could you please link to them? I bet like half of it is “Love can exist before a woman is like 40 and she hits The Wall, at which point it’s retarded for a man to care about her while he could be chasing younger girls, and all she can be is a mother.”
I read him and I strongly disagree with this statement. You confuse his online style of writing for the actual man. He does not advocate treating fat ugly women badly, he merely advocates not giving them the illusion that they are just as desirable on the sexual marketplace as other women, thus robbing them of the incentive to improve and the ideologies such delusions empower.
It seems to me that there are a lot of people telling fat women that they’re worthless in the sexual marketplace, and rather few saying anything else.
I know a moderate number of fat women who apparently have happy marriages and (from what they tell me) active sex lives.
Possibly of interest: Fat Sex—fat women discuss their sex lives, which cover the region of possibility pretty well, including lots of men are attracted, true love, relationships are difficult, and nobody’s interested. The only way I can see that those women are different from thin women is that I don’t think thin women ever attract men who don’t want to be seen with them in public—and not all fat women run into that particular problem, just some of them.
Roissy just doesn’t seem to be living in the same universe I do.
Hmmm, I’m sure I’ve seen Roissy arguing that unattractive women often can’t do much to improve their appearance—that makeup etc is pointless, and that women without (for example) ideal bone stucture are unattractive (see the dating market value test). There is therefore not much room for improvement for many women. Athol Kay, in contrast, seems to think that many currently unattractive women can improve.