For women: you have a great deal of control over how other people react to you. You can take some responsibility for how you are perceived.
personal anecdote: I’m a female maths undergrad, and most of my social circle is male. First term there I concentrated on making friends, so I adopted casual, unisex clothing styles. I attracted male attention only when I dressed in a stereotypically girly way for fancy dress parties and social events.
Second term I was on a mate hunt, so I overhhauled my wardrobe and started wearing skirts and behaving in a mate-attracting way. According to my now OH, that’s when he “realised I was a girl”.
So basically if you don’t want men to view you as a potential mate, it’s helpful to not act like one. Think hoodies and ill-fitting jeans. And if you have got attracting mates in the back of your mind, and your body language shows it, then you shouldn’t be surprised if men notice you.
Second piece of advice for women where it applies: tracking your menstrual cycle is the easiest first step towards luminosity. Different hormones induce different kinds of bias, and also prompt changes in body language and attitude, which may cause people to react differently. The effects can then be harnessed or corrected for.
Another problem that I can see is that if I dress in attractive clothes and start dating someone, they might not want me to start dressing in unflattering clothes after we start dating (esp if looking like a girl is part of what attracted them to me). I either have to disappoint my new partner and wear baggy clothes, or to continue wearing flattering clothes and continue to deal with guys perceiving me as available.
ETA: I tend to go for guys who have a sense of style (not always, but often) and I’d be disappointed it they started wearing baggy jeans and hoodies because “now I have a girlfriend I don’t have to make an effort.”
There are other ways of deflecting male attention. If you’re at a social event alone, instead of signaling ‘I am not a potential mate’, you could signal ‘I am in a monogamous relationship and my boyfriend is higher status than you’. It’s a bit harder, and I’m still working on it, but certainly possible.
Erm, there are obvious ways of doing it. I tend to just drop my boyfriend into conversation as often as it is appropriate, and make sure I mention him in contexts such as “oh he’s really good at such-and-such”.
Okay, that seems obvious now that you’ve mentioned it. I started to try to think of all these abstract things, and I could only think of maybe showing off jewelry that was supposed to imply you’re in a relationship. I was thinking about more subtle things, and I couldn’t really think of anything, so I was wondering if maybe I was just missing something.
So what? Some dating-but-not-married-nor-engaged couples wear such jewellery too. EDIT: and if you forgo the ″is higher-status than you″ part (which for certain values of ″status″ would mean you come off as a gold-digger) you don’t even need it to be very expensive, and even a picture of the two of you kissing as the wallpaper on your mobile phone would suffice. (If they know you know they know you have a boyfriend—even if he’s not higher-status than them—and they hit on you anyway, they lose plausible deniability all the same.) EDIT 2: On reading chaosmosis again, I realize it’s a male and he’s asking about how to find out if a woman has a boyfriend. If so, the answer is ″You ask them.″
I tend to prefer to wear flattering clothes, whether looking for a partner or not, because they make me feel more comfortable/confident. It’s possible to wear clothes that are flattering, but not sexy, I think. Maybe I need to work on this more.
It depends on what you mean by flattering. If you want to emphasise a feminine figure, then that’s always going to be sexy I’m afraid, so you’ll probably want a different approach for deflecting male attention. You can, however, get well-fitted jackets, shirts etc in good materials that don’t cinch in at the waist, and trousers cut straight to deemphasise the rear if you merely wanted good quality clothes. Look for the androgynous style fashions from the last couple of years.
It’s possible to wear clothes that are flattering, but not sexy, I think.
For a female? No, it really is not. But just in case I misunderstand what you mean, care to tell the difference between flattering and sexy? Or link to a couple of pictures of each type and we can let the males here provide feedback on whether what you consider simply flattering is also sexy.
One classic example of flattering but not sexy is coloration that suits you—if you have fair skin, blue-green eyes and salt and pepper hair, a light grey and sage green jacket is going to be flattering, but can range freely from not sexy to sexy.
I’m not confident of it—I’d like it to be possible! I think workwear (suits etc) is probably the closest thing to it, but even that’s often made quite sexy.
doesn’t involve me having to wear uncomfortable and unflattering clothes
Comfortable is easy, comfortable but flattering is harder, comfortable, flattering but not sexy is harder still. Also, I suspect that when women say “comfortable”, they often mean something other than what straight guys mean by the same term. For example, many women would say that wearing basic sweats and a hoodie in public is uncomfortable.
Sorry, I meant “clothes that I feel uncomfortable in,” not “clothes that are physically uncomfortable.” I would feel uncomfortable/less confident in sweats and a hoodie. I appreciate it was the wrong choice of words.
This strategy makes a lot of sense, but I wonder whether it’s applicable to professional settings. Jeans and a hoodie don’t just signal nongirliness; they also signal casualness. Does anyone know of equivalently gender-neutral clothes that are appropriate for formal settings? Or is it unnecessary because the formality prevents people from making unwanted advances anyway?
I don’t have much experience of professional settings, but from my knowledge of women’s clothing: you can get tailored shirts in fairly male cuts and straight-leg trousers or long skirts that don’t hug the figure. I’d imagine one would be received differently for wearing a very modest shirt and trousers combo vs a v-neck blouse and pencil skirt.
In most places, I think it’s now acceptable for women to wear a tuxedo for black tie, if you go to that kind of thing and feel that cocktail dresses attract too much attention. Alternatively, keep a modest dress in your wardrobe.
It’s worth mentioning that even in quite progressive circles, women in traditionally male-style suits tends to cross into that transgressive genderfuck aesthetic. There are a small but significant number of men and women who are really into that, and as a result I imagine this plan would backfire quite badly.
Right, ok. The question is then if these people are sufficiently less common and/or less annoying than men who give unwanted attention to feminine women to make it a worthwhile plan for avoiding attention nonetheless. The exist many situations where there are a significant number of people who react in a way that might be considered undesirable to feminine women.
Also, if breaking out of gendered roles is a big problem in some workplaces, there are ways to dress very modestly while still looking feminine.
I’m not suggesting the general idea of dressing gender-neutral isn’t a good one; I am largely un-knowledgeable on the subject and can’t really comment on that aspect of it. But a woman wearing a suit in a cut traditionally for men carries connotations a naive wearer may not be aware of.
It’s a bit like wearing a collar. It has a specific meaning in BDSM subculture, and signals membership to that group. Someone naively wearing a collar is going to get a lot of unwanted attention at a social gathering. Wearing a suit isn’t quite that specific, and doesn’t belong to a specific subculture, but if your goal is to not have people come up to you and start talking about sex, it’s going to fail in a whole bunch of ways.
Ah right, I see what you’re saying there. I have loose women’s jeans and I have men’s jeans and agree that the implications are rather different.
In this instance I was intending to convey the “modest, but nevertheless womens” trouser suit, as exemplied in theselinks, rather than “a suit that looks like a mens suit”.
What prompted me to respond was the “tuxedo for black tie” comment. For business-formal, there’s obviously a variety of tasteful and subdued options. I don’t believe there’s such a thing as gender-neutral evening wear.
Oh! Ok, fair enough, that makes even more sense. Though I think that’s much less of an issue now than it would have been 5 years ago, because ladies tuxedos have been incrediblytrendy for about 2 years now. I normally dress very feminine and I still have a couple in my wardrobe. Obviously most of the examples given are still styled in the “sexy” direction, but it’s easy to modify that into positive “stylish” but negative “sexy” (by, say, ditching the high heels and switching the short skirts and tight trousers for flowing skirts and palazzo trousers).
It would be like if collars suddenly became fashionable, and celebrities started to wear them to red carpet events all the time.
For women: you have a great deal of control over how other people react to you. You can take some responsibility for how you are perceived.
personal anecdote: I’m a female maths undergrad, and most of my social circle is male. First term there I concentrated on making friends, so I adopted casual, unisex clothing styles. I attracted male attention only when I dressed in a stereotypically girly way for fancy dress parties and social events.
Second term I was on a mate hunt, so I overhhauled my wardrobe and started wearing skirts and behaving in a mate-attracting way. According to my now OH, that’s when he “realised I was a girl”.
So basically if you don’t want men to view you as a potential mate, it’s helpful to not act like one. Think hoodies and ill-fitting jeans. And if you have got attracting mates in the back of your mind, and your body language shows it, then you shouldn’t be surprised if men notice you.
Second piece of advice for women where it applies: tracking your menstrual cycle is the easiest first step towards luminosity. Different hormones induce different kinds of bias, and also prompt changes in body language and attitude, which may cause people to react differently. The effects can then be harnessed or corrected for.
This is an overgeneralization. There are ways to improve the odds, but no guarantees.
Agreed and edited.
Another problem that I can see is that if I dress in attractive clothes and start dating someone, they might not want me to start dressing in unflattering clothes after we start dating (esp if looking like a girl is part of what attracted them to me). I either have to disappoint my new partner and wear baggy clothes, or to continue wearing flattering clothes and continue to deal with guys perceiving me as available.
ETA: I tend to go for guys who have a sense of style (not always, but often) and I’d be disappointed it they started wearing baggy jeans and hoodies because “now I have a girlfriend I don’t have to make an effort.”
There are other ways of deflecting male attention. If you’re at a social event alone, instead of signaling ‘I am not a potential mate’, you could signal ‘I am in a monogamous relationship and my boyfriend is higher status than you’. It’s a bit harder, and I’m still working on it, but certainly possible.
It’s more frustrating for the guys though.
I’m curious what would signal this. If I can’t interpret these kind of signals then I’m in trouble.
Erm, there are obvious ways of doing it. I tend to just drop my boyfriend into conversation as often as it is appropriate, and make sure I mention him in contexts such as “oh he’s really good at such-and-such”.
Okay, that seems obvious now that you’ve mentioned it. I started to try to think of all these abstract things, and I could only think of maybe showing off jewelry that was supposed to imply you’re in a relationship. I was thinking about more subtle things, and I couldn’t really think of anything, so I was wondering if maybe I was just missing something.
A very expensive ring on your left fourth finger/heart-shaped jewel hanging from your necklace/etc.?
boyfriend != husband
So what? Some dating-but-not-married-nor-engaged couples wear such jewellery too. EDIT: and if you forgo the ″is higher-status than you″ part (which for certain values of ″status″ would mean you come off as a gold-digger) you don’t even need it to be very expensive, and even a picture of the two of you kissing as the wallpaper on your mobile phone would suffice. (If they know you know they know you have a boyfriend—even if he’s not higher-status than them—and they hit on you anyway, they lose plausible deniability all the same.) EDIT 2: On reading chaosmosis again, I realize it’s a male and he’s asking about how to find out if a woman has a boyfriend. If so, the answer is ″You ask them.″
I tend to prefer to wear flattering clothes, whether looking for a partner or not, because they make me feel more comfortable/confident. It’s possible to wear clothes that are flattering, but not sexy, I think. Maybe I need to work on this more.
It depends on what you mean by flattering. If you want to emphasise a feminine figure, then that’s always going to be sexy I’m afraid, so you’ll probably want a different approach for deflecting male attention. You can, however, get well-fitted jackets, shirts etc in good materials that don’t cinch in at the waist, and trousers cut straight to deemphasise the rear if you merely wanted good quality clothes. Look for the androgynous style fashions from the last couple of years.
For a female? No, it really is not. But just in case I misunderstand what you mean, care to tell the difference between flattering and sexy? Or link to a couple of pictures of each type and we can let the males here provide feedback on whether what you consider simply flattering is also sexy.
One classic example of flattering but not sexy is coloration that suits you—if you have fair skin, blue-green eyes and salt and pepper hair, a light grey and sage green jacket is going to be flattering, but can range freely from not sexy to sexy.
Not sure of this. A large, colourful wool sweater can be flattering for certain women, but it’s not particularly sexy (in my eyes at least).
I’m not confident of it—I’d like it to be possible! I think workwear (suits etc) is probably the closest thing to it, but even that’s often made quite sexy.
I share your dreams of living in a should-universe :)
Mostly I’d like to have a solution that doesn’t involve me having to wear uncomfortable and unflattering clothes :)!
Comfortable is easy, comfortable but flattering is harder, comfortable, flattering but not sexy is harder still. Also, I suspect that when women say “comfortable”, they often mean something other than what straight guys mean by the same term. For example, many women would say that wearing basic sweats and a hoodie in public is uncomfortable.
Um, high heels?
Sorry, I meant “clothes that I feel uncomfortable in,” not “clothes that are physically uncomfortable.” I would feel uncomfortable/less confident in sweats and a hoodie. I appreciate it was the wrong choice of words.
This strategy makes a lot of sense, but I wonder whether it’s applicable to professional settings. Jeans and a hoodie don’t just signal nongirliness; they also signal casualness. Does anyone know of equivalently gender-neutral clothes that are appropriate for formal settings? Or is it unnecessary because the formality prevents people from making unwanted advances anyway?
I don’t have much experience of professional settings, but from my knowledge of women’s clothing: you can get tailored shirts in fairly male cuts and straight-leg trousers or long skirts that don’t hug the figure. I’d imagine one would be received differently for wearing a very modest shirt and trousers combo vs a v-neck blouse and pencil skirt.
In most places, I think it’s now acceptable for women to wear a tuxedo for black tie, if you go to that kind of thing and feel that cocktail dresses attract too much attention. Alternatively, keep a modest dress in your wardrobe.
It’s worth mentioning that even in quite progressive circles, women in traditionally male-style suits tends to cross into that transgressive genderfuck aesthetic. There are a small but significant number of men and women who are really into that, and as a result I imagine this plan would backfire quite badly.
Right, ok. The question is then if these people are sufficiently less common and/or less annoying than men who give unwanted attention to feminine women to make it a worthwhile plan for avoiding attention nonetheless. The exist many situations where there are a significant number of people who react in a way that might be considered undesirable to feminine women.
Also, if breaking out of gendered roles is a big problem in some workplaces, there are ways to dress very modestly while still looking feminine.
I’m not suggesting the general idea of dressing gender-neutral isn’t a good one; I am largely un-knowledgeable on the subject and can’t really comment on that aspect of it. But a woman wearing a suit in a cut traditionally for men carries connotations a naive wearer may not be aware of.
It’s a bit like wearing a collar. It has a specific meaning in BDSM subculture, and signals membership to that group. Someone naively wearing a collar is going to get a lot of unwanted attention at a social gathering. Wearing a suit isn’t quite that specific, and doesn’t belong to a specific subculture, but if your goal is to not have people come up to you and start talking about sex, it’s going to fail in a whole bunch of ways.
Ah right, I see what you’re saying there. I have loose women’s jeans and I have men’s jeans and agree that the implications are rather different.
In this instance I was intending to convey the “modest, but nevertheless womens” trouser suit, as exemplied in these links, rather than “a suit that looks like a mens suit”.
What prompted me to respond was the “tuxedo for black tie” comment. For business-formal, there’s obviously a variety of tasteful and subdued options. I don’t believe there’s such a thing as gender-neutral evening wear.
Oh! Ok, fair enough, that makes even more sense. Though I think that’s much less of an issue now than it would have been 5 years ago, because ladies tuxedos have been incredibly trendy for about 2 years now. I normally dress very feminine and I still have a couple in my wardrobe. Obviously most of the examples given are still styled in the “sexy” direction, but it’s easy to modify that into positive “stylish” but negative “sexy” (by, say, ditching the high heels and switching the short skirts and tight trousers for flowing skirts and palazzo trousers).
It would be like if collars suddenly became fashionable, and celebrities started to wear them to red carpet events all the time.