In discussions such as these, how do you prefer that the community refers to its female members? Do you like when female community members are called “women”? “girls”? “females”? Do you actively dislike any of these options? What is your opinion on gender-neutral pronouns, and what do you use for the third-person-singular-neuter? I’m also interested in any other observations you’ve had on the linguistics of gender.
I have a purely idiosyncratic, aesthetic distaste for the words “women” and “men”, so I use “girls” and “guys”, occasionally “boys”, sometimes “males” and “females”, if I’m being a little silly “dude” and “lady”. I do sometimes use “women” and “men” when talking in a more formal register.
I like Spivak pronouns when talking about specific gender-unknown individuals where “they” is ambiguous or strange-sounding.
I hate being mispronouned. (I wouldn’t mind if someone Spivaked me, but I’d then inform them of my gender.) I hate it even more when people think I’m being ridiculous for hating it.
In general, I prefer “women”. If it’s a far view discussion, then “females” is ok with me as long as it’s paralleled by “males”.
I don’t like “girls” being used to refer to adult women.
I use the singular “they”. I don’t mind invented pronouns. I get annoyed at male pronouns used to refer to people in general and still get startled at female pronouns used to refer to people in general.
I tend to prefer women. “Girls” often feels a bit demeaning, especially when contrasted with “men” or “guys”.
“Females” sounds like somebody’s trying to lend their remark a little too much apparently-biological weight.
I like gender-neutral pronouns when they’re handy, for people who want them, or for the generic case. I used to be a bit mixed on which one sounded good for just general conversation, but after reading the Eclipse Phase RPG I pretty much stopped having any sympathy for the idea that “singular they” is awkward. It flows very well for me and sounds quite natural, and it’s a common term in English so there’s no trouble with inflecting it.
what do you use for the third-person-singular-neuter?
I tend to prefer women. “Girls” often feels a bit demeaning, especially when contrasted with “men” or “guys”.
It’s problematic that there isn’t really an age-indeterminate female pronoun to act as a counterpart to “guys,” since a not-insignificant fraction of our members are still in their teens.
Only when it’s used at all, which is far less often than ‘guys’. Yes, it’s true that it’s a distaff counterpart to ‘guys’, but so is ‘dolls’, and would you seriously propose unironic usage of ‘dolls’?
“Women” and “females” are both fine for me. The worst thing is when men are referred to as “men”, and women are referred to as “girls” in the same discussion. No.
“Girls” is only ok when referring to children, or in very casual use to refer to a group of female friends. i.e. “Hey, going out with the girls tonight?”, or if the male pronoun in that situation would be “boys” or “guys”.
If a discussion is going on about gender, as long as no one uses “girls”, I don’t like when someone brings up “Hey, you should use the term “women” instead of “females”″ (or vice versa). It reads as just another way to get the discussion off-track from the important issues.
On a related note, I generally either use the neutral form of the word, or put a note about how even though I used the masculine form I don’t like patriarchy. It’s just sometimes a hassle to neuter everything, and I like going with the tradition of using the masculine form because I’ve already internalized it. But I don’t want it to feel like I’m overlooking women’s concerns.
The singular “they” is grammatically correct and requires less effort than “he or she” or alternating “he” and “she”.
The generic “she” isn’t gender-nuetral, but I think it’s fine to use when everyone else is using the generic “he”. Like affirmative action for pronouns. I usually use “they”, but whenever I see an animal and I don’t know it’s gender I call it a “she”. Because most people will call the animal “he” and I want to counter-act that.
So, specifically, if I used the masculine form but then also put down a note about how I don’t like patriarchy, would you would still feel bad or think I’m supporting bad assumptions? The note thing is what I generally do in the status quo, and what requires the least effort on my part.
I can understand if you would still feel bad, I just wanted to make sure you saw the note caveat I mentioned because you didn’t mention anything about it in your comment.
I actually either missed the note caveat, or else didn’t mention it because I don’t think that sort of note helps.
The thing is, I still have a mental habit of seeing male as default human—I’m not just hoping to get rid of that in my own mind, I’d really prefer it if the meme of male as default human isn’t spread.
When guys use the word “girls”, it makes me wonder if they’re teenagers who still spend most of their time with girls. “Females” reminds me of scientific studies… I use it myself if “women” doesn’t fit, but due to the association with test subjects, it sounds a bit dehumanizing at times. I like “women” best.
I don’t like that we have to use gender pronouns so often, and I wish we had something that never sounded awkward and fit every circumstance. When being gender neutral, I use they/them/their, and may jam them in even if they sound a little off.
In discussions such as these, how do you prefer that the community refers to its female members? Do you like when female community members are called “women”? “girls”? “females”? Do you actively dislike any of these options? What is your opinion on gender-neutral pronouns, and what do you use for the third-person-singular-neuter? I’m also interested in any other observations you’ve had on the linguistics of gender.
I have a purely idiosyncratic, aesthetic distaste for the words “women” and “men”, so I use “girls” and “guys”, occasionally “boys”, sometimes “males” and “females”, if I’m being a little silly “dude” and “lady”. I do sometimes use “women” and “men” when talking in a more formal register.
I like Spivak pronouns when talking about specific gender-unknown individuals where “they” is ambiguous or strange-sounding.
I hate being mispronouned. (I wouldn’t mind if someone Spivaked me, but I’d then inform them of my gender.) I hate it even more when people think I’m being ridiculous for hating it.
In general, I prefer “women”. If it’s a far view discussion, then “females” is ok with me as long as it’s paralleled by “males”. I don’t like “girls” being used to refer to adult women.
I use the singular “they”. I don’t mind invented pronouns. I get annoyed at male pronouns used to refer to people in general and still get startled at female pronouns used to refer to people in general.
I tend to prefer women. “Girls” often feels a bit demeaning, especially when contrasted with “men” or “guys”.
“Females” sounds like somebody’s trying to lend their remark a little too much apparently-biological weight.
I like gender-neutral pronouns when they’re handy, for people who want them, or for the generic case. I used to be a bit mixed on which one sounded good for just general conversation, but after reading the Eclipse Phase RPG I pretty much stopped having any sympathy for the idea that “singular they” is awkward. It flows very well for me and sounds quite natural, and it’s a common term in English so there’s no trouble with inflecting it.
They, them, their.
It’s problematic that there isn’t really an age-indeterminate female pronoun to act as a counterpart to “guys,” since a not-insignificant fraction of our members are still in their teens.
What about ‘gals’? While it’s technically just a form of “girls”, it’s used contextually similarly to “guys”.
Only when it’s used at all, which is far less often than ‘guys’. Yes, it’s true that it’s a distaff counterpart to ‘guys’, but so is ‘dolls’, and would you seriously propose unironic usage of ‘dolls’?
I suppose that is indeed a word that exists. Having grown up in the Northeastern U.S., it’s not really part of my active vocabulary.
“Women” and “females” are both fine for me. The worst thing is when men are referred to as “men”, and women are referred to as “girls” in the same discussion. No.
“Girls” is only ok when referring to children, or in very casual use to refer to a group of female friends. i.e. “Hey, going out with the girls tonight?”, or if the male pronoun in that situation would be “boys” or “guys”.
If a discussion is going on about gender, as long as no one uses “girls”, I don’t like when someone brings up “Hey, you should use the term “women” instead of “females”″ (or vice versa). It reads as just another way to get the discussion off-track from the important issues.
On a related note, I generally either use the neutral form of the word, or put a note about how even though I used the masculine form I don’t like patriarchy. It’s just sometimes a hassle to neuter everything, and I like going with the tradition of using the masculine form because I’ve already internalized it. But I don’t want it to feel like I’m overlooking women’s concerns.
Anyone here dislike that?
I’ve found that it’s possible to avoid gendered pronouns with a little work. You may find that practice helps.
If they can’t be avoided there’s always “he or she”, possibly alternated with “she or he”.
For what it’s worth, I don’t like male as the default human. It’s very far from the worst thing ever, but I recommend avoiding it.
The singular “they” is grammatically correct and requires less effort than “he or she” or alternating “he” and “she”.
The generic “she” isn’t gender-nuetral, but I think it’s fine to use when everyone else is using the generic “he”. Like affirmative action for pronouns. I usually use “they”, but whenever I see an animal and I don’t know it’s gender I call it a “she”. Because most people will call the animal “he” and I want to counter-act that.
So, specifically, if I used the masculine form but then also put down a note about how I don’t like patriarchy, would you would still feel bad or think I’m supporting bad assumptions? The note thing is what I generally do in the status quo, and what requires the least effort on my part.
I can understand if you would still feel bad, I just wanted to make sure you saw the note caveat I mentioned because you didn’t mention anything about it in your comment.
I actually either missed the note caveat, or else didn’t mention it because I don’t think that sort of note helps.
The thing is, I still have a mental habit of seeing male as default human—I’m not just hoping to get rid of that in my own mind, I’d really prefer it if the meme of male as default human isn’t spread.
When guys use the word “girls”, it makes me wonder if they’re teenagers who still spend most of their time with girls. “Females” reminds me of scientific studies… I use it myself if “women” doesn’t fit, but due to the association with test subjects, it sounds a bit dehumanizing at times. I like “women” best.
I don’t like that we have to use gender pronouns so often, and I wish we had something that never sounded awkward and fit every circumstance. When being gender neutral, I use they/them/their, and may jam them in even if they sound a little off.