Individualism and altruism aren’t exclusive. I didn’t mean to imply you are selfish, just that your operating definition of self seems informed by a particular tradition.
Consider the perspective of liberal republicans of the 19th century who fought and died for their nation (because that’s where they decided, or were taught, to center their self). Each nation is completely unique and irreplaceable, so we must fight to keep nations thriving and alive, and prevent their extinction. Dying for patriotism is glorious, honorable, etc.
I have no idea of what consciousness is scientifically, but morally I’m pretty sure it is valuable. All morality comes from the seeking of well-being for the conscious being. So if there’s any value system, consciousness must be at the center. There’s not much explaining here needed, it’s just that everyone wants to be well—and to be.
But that’s my point, consciousness will go on just fine without either of us specifically being here. Ending one conscious experience from one body so that a different one can happen seems fine to me, for the most part. I dunno the philosophical implications of this, just thinking.
If most people are saying that AGI is decade(s) off then we aren’t that far.
Yeah, it’s exciting for sure.
I’m 30 as well, so I’ll be near death in the decades that likely begin to birth AGI. But it would likely be able to fathom things unfathomable to us, who knows. History beyond that point is a black hole for me. It’s all basilisks and space jam past 2050 as far as I’m concerned :)
The act of ceasing to exist if of the utmost cruelty and there’s nothing that can compensate that.
Well, I guess that’s it, huh? I don’t think so, but clearly a lot of people do. Btw I’m new to this community, so sorry if I’m uninformed on issues that are well hashed out here. What a fun place, though.
I can see the altruism in dying for a cause. But it’s a leap of faith to claim, from there, that there’s altruism in dying by itself. To die why, to make room for others to get born? Unborn beings don’t exist, they are not moral patients. It would be perfectly fine if no one else was born from now on—in fact it would be better than even 1 single person dying.
Furthermore, if we’re trying to create a technological mature society capable of discovering immortality, perhaps much sooner will it be capable of colonizing other planets. So there are trillions of empty planets to put all the new people before we have to start taking out the old ones.
To die to make room for others just doesn’t make any sense.
“consciousness will go on just fine without either of us specifically being here”
It sure will. But that’s like saying that money will go on just fine if you go bankrupt. I mean, sure, the world will still be full of wealth, but that won’t make you any less poor. Now imagine this happening to everyone inevitably. Sounds really sh*tty to me.
Unborn beings don’t exist, they are not moral patients. It would be perfectly fine if no one else was born from now on—in fact it would be better than even 1 single person dying.
Well, okay, but why? Why don’t tomorrow people matter at all? Is there a real moral normativity that dictates this, or are we just saying our feelings to each other? I don’t mean that condescendingly, just trying to understand where you’re coming from when you make this claim.
I can see the altruism in dying for a cause. But it’s a leap of faith to claim, from there, that there’s altruism in dying by itself.
But I’m arguing for something different from altruism. I go further by saying that the approach to constructing a sense of self differs substantively between people, cultures, etc. Someone who dies for their nation might not be altruistic per se, if they have located their identity primarily in the nation. In other words, they are being selfish, not as their person, but as their nation.
Does that make sense?
Granted, your point about interstellar travel makes all of this irrelevant. But I’m much more cynical about humanity’s future. Or at least, the future of the humans I actually see around me. Technology here is so behind. Growing your own food as a rational way to supplement income is common, education ends for most people at age 12, the vast majority don’t have hot water, AC, etc. Smartphones are ubiquitous though.
Immortal lords from Facebook deciding how many rations of maize I’ll receive for the upvotes I earned today. Like, of course the Facebook lord will think he’s building Utopia. But from here, will it look much better than the utopia that the church and aristocracy collaborated to build in medieval Europe?
I don’t look to the future with hope as often as I look to the past with envy. Though I do both, from time to time.
Tomorrow people matter, in terms of leaving them a place in minimally decent conditions. That’s why when you die for a cause, you’re also dying so that tomorrow people can die less and suffer less. But in fact you’re not dying for unborn people—you’re dying for living ones from the future.
But to die to make room for others is simply to die for unborn people. Because them never being born is no tragedy—they never existed, so they never missed anything. But living people actually dying is a tragedy.
And I’m not against the fact that giving live is a great gift. Or should I say, it could be a great gift, if this world was at least acceptable, which it’s far from being. It’s just that not giving it doesn’t hold any negative value, it’s just neutral instead of positive. Whereas taking a life does hold negative value.
Individualism and altruism aren’t exclusive. I didn’t mean to imply you are selfish, just that your operating definition of self seems informed by a particular tradition.
Consider the perspective of liberal republicans of the 19th century who fought and died for their nation (because that’s where they decided, or were taught, to center their self). Each nation is completely unique and irreplaceable, so we must fight to keep nations thriving and alive, and prevent their extinction. Dying for patriotism is glorious, honorable, etc.
But that’s my point, consciousness will go on just fine without either of us specifically being here. Ending one conscious experience from one body so that a different one can happen seems fine to me, for the most part. I dunno the philosophical implications of this, just thinking.
Yeah, it’s exciting for sure.
I’m 30 as well, so I’ll be near death in the decades that likely begin to birth AGI. But it would likely be able to fathom things unfathomable to us, who knows. History beyond that point is a black hole for me. It’s all basilisks and space jam past 2050 as far as I’m concerned :)
Well, I guess that’s it, huh? I don’t think so, but clearly a lot of people do. Btw I’m new to this community, so sorry if I’m uninformed on issues that are well hashed out here. What a fun place, though.
I can see the altruism in dying for a cause. But it’s a leap of faith to claim, from there, that there’s altruism in dying by itself. To die why, to make room for others to get born? Unborn beings don’t exist, they are not moral patients. It would be perfectly fine if no one else was born from now on—in fact it would be better than even 1 single person dying.
Furthermore, if we’re trying to create a technological mature society capable of discovering immortality, perhaps much sooner will it be capable of colonizing other planets. So there are trillions of empty planets to put all the new people before we have to start taking out the old ones.
To die to make room for others just doesn’t make any sense.
“consciousness will go on just fine without either of us specifically being here”
It sure will. But that’s like saying that money will go on just fine if you go bankrupt. I mean, sure, the world will still be full of wealth, but that won’t make you any less poor. Now imagine this happening to everyone inevitably. Sounds really sh*tty to me.
“Btw I’m new to this community,”
Welcome then!
Well, okay, but why? Why don’t tomorrow people matter at all? Is there a real moral normativity that dictates this, or are we just saying our feelings to each other? I don’t mean that condescendingly, just trying to understand where you’re coming from when you make this claim.
But I’m arguing for something different from altruism. I go further by saying that the approach to constructing a sense of self differs substantively between people, cultures, etc. Someone who dies for their nation might not be altruistic per se, if they have located their identity primarily in the nation. In other words, they are being selfish, not as their person, but as their nation.
Does that make sense?
Granted, your point about interstellar travel makes all of this irrelevant. But I’m much more cynical about humanity’s future. Or at least, the future of the humans I actually see around me. Technology here is so behind. Growing your own food as a rational way to supplement income is common, education ends for most people at age 12, the vast majority don’t have hot water, AC, etc. Smartphones are ubiquitous though.
Immortal lords from Facebook deciding how many rations of maize I’ll receive for the upvotes I earned today. Like, of course the Facebook lord will think he’s building Utopia. But from here, will it look much better than the utopia that the church and aristocracy collaborated to build in medieval Europe?
I don’t look to the future with hope as often as I look to the past with envy. Though I do both, from time to time.
Tomorrow people matter, in terms of leaving them a place in minimally decent conditions. That’s why when you die for a cause, you’re also dying so that tomorrow people can die less and suffer less. But in fact you’re not dying for unborn people—you’re dying for living ones from the future.
But to die to make room for others is simply to die for unborn people. Because them never being born is no tragedy—they never existed, so they never missed anything. But living people actually dying is a tragedy.
And I’m not against the fact that giving live is a great gift. Or should I say, it could be a great gift, if this world was at least acceptable, which it’s far from being. It’s just that not giving it doesn’t hold any negative value, it’s just neutral instead of positive. Whereas taking a life does hold negative value.
It’s as simple as that.