. “It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is either ignorant, stupid, or insane.”
Earlier I said Dawkins was a perfect gentleman, but here he proves me wrong. By including ignorant in with stupid and insane, he is making a lack of knowledge equivalent to severe mental defects.
It took mankind thousands of years to come up with evolution (and self organizing systems in general). They were all ignorant, but in a non pejorative sense. Dawkins can get a little snippy when defending his baby.
Earlier I said Dawkins was a perfect gentleman, but here he proves me wrong. By including ignorant in with stupid and insane, he is making a lack of knowledge equivalent to severe mental defects.
You have parsed the meaning incorrectly. Including ‘ignorant’ makes the statement less rude, not more.
Uttering two different words within an ‘either’ class does make those words equivalent it means that ONLY ONE of them need apply. If he left out ignorant then that would be rude indeed. Simply being massively ill informed and provided with insufficient information does not make you stupid, it does make you ignorant.
But he didn’t utter 2 words, he uttered 3, all listed in a way that didn’t distinguish ignorant from stupid and rude. If he intended to distinguish ignorant from from stupid and rude, he could have done so. “They are either ignorant, or stupid or rude.”
Ignorant may or may not be pejorative. If you put it in an otherwise undifferentiated list of multiple other pejorative terms, you should expect the sense taken to be pejorative.
So, I agree with you that if I say “X is either A, B, or C” I am connoting equivalence among A, B, and C, though of course wedrifid is correct that no such equivalence is denoted. (The contrast can be funny. I gather it’s conventional to provide warnings for TV Tropes links.)
But I cannot quite figure out what your objection to Dawkins’ quote actually is, here. As near as I can figure it out, you seem to be saying that by adding “ignorance” to the list he is insulting ignorant people, by implicitly equating them to stupid and insane people, which is rude… whereas if he’d just said “somebody who claims not to believe in evolution is either stupid or insane” he would merely have been equating creationists with stupid and insane people, which is not rude.
No, I’m saying that Dawkin’s list contains no non pejorative options, and hence is an insult. I reject wedfridid’s alternative interpretation of ignorant that would be non pejorative.
So how would you make Dawkins’ statement—which is, and this is the actual point, a statement that is both true[1] and important—in a manner that you would find acceptable?
[1] They could of course be a liar, but you don’t have to work that one into your answer as well. Let’s go with what Dawkins said.
“It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is either ignorant, stupid, or insane.”
First, that the somebody in question is not telling the literal truth is a very likely alternative. Some who claim they don’t believe in evolution may in fact believe in evolution, but don’t want people to know, or want to signal support for those who don’t believe in evolution.
Seems like Dawkins comment wasn’t quite so “absolutely safe” after all. To further criticize Dawkins, this is a case where he is in fact showing unwarranted intellectual arrogance, making an absolute claim of fact, when a tiny bit of reflection on Dennett’s theme of “belief in belief” would have shown him the error of his claim. I have repeatedly found that Dawkins is not at his intellectual or gentlemanly best when the evolution is questioned as a historical fact.
Second, even if you ignore the liar aspect, I don’t think the statement is true unless one plays Clintonian games with language. I could say that everyone is stupid, insane, and ignorant, and it would be true in the context I intend. But in plain, everyday English, his statement was an insult, and it was false.
On your question, I feel that there would be more value in those defending this statement as pejorative free to try to come up with a revised statement that was in fact pejorative free. But I’ll give you one of my own:
“Someone who claims to not believe in evolution is stupid or insane, or is simply ignorant of the theory of evolution and the associated evidence for it.”
Note that this hardly sugar coats the judgment on the person, and many would still find it offensive. But this at least differentiates ignorant from stupid and insane, and more importantly, it delimits the ignorance to an arguably justified scope. If I were at my gentlemanly best, I would leave out the stupid and insane parts entirely, and just say that if you don’t believe in evolution, I think you don’t understand it. Again, many would find that blunt and rude, but I guess that’s as gentlemanly as I get.
It occurs to me that Dawkins could, in a perfect world, have saved us this argument by just using “simple ignorance” instead of unadorned “ignorance”. But then, The God Delusion is annoyingly philosophically unsophisticated. Its main virtue is that it appears to work.
The book pretty much states as its explicit purpose making as many people as possible aware that being religious is a choice and that there can be alternatives. Watertight philosophical rigor would probably harm that goal.
Getting smart people to think that religion deserves seriously thought out counterarguments might just be a way for theists to keep winning anyway.
So it’s ok to call people stupid or insane, but it’s NOT ok to call them ignorant? I’d much rather be ignorant than stupid or insane because ignorance is a condition that can be cured rather than an inherent attribute of an individual.
And in this day of freely available education ignorance is indeed equivalent to a mental defect. At the very least it shows a defect in the natural desire to learn.
Wow. −5. That’s a record for me. And all for a quite reasonable interpretation of his words. No, for the most reasonable interpretation of his words. I’m sticking by it.
Earlier I said Dawkins was a perfect gentleman, but here he proves me wrong. By including ignorant in with stupid and insane, he is making a lack of knowledge equivalent to severe mental defects.
It took mankind thousands of years to come up with evolution (and self organizing systems in general). They were all ignorant, but in a non pejorative sense. Dawkins can get a little snippy when defending his baby.
You have parsed the meaning incorrectly. Including ‘ignorant’ makes the statement less rude, not more.
Uttering two different words within an ‘either’ class does make those words equivalent it means that ONLY ONE of them need apply. If he left out ignorant then that would be rude indeed. Simply being massively ill informed and provided with insufficient information does not make you stupid, it does make you ignorant.
But he didn’t utter 2 words, he uttered 3, all listed in a way that didn’t distinguish ignorant from stupid and rude. If he intended to distinguish ignorant from from stupid and rude, he could have done so. “They are either ignorant, or stupid or rude.”
Ignorant may or may not be pejorative. If you put it in an otherwise undifferentiated list of multiple other pejorative terms, you should expect the sense taken to be pejorative.
So, I agree with you that if I say “X is either A, B, or C” I am connoting equivalence among A, B, and C, though of course wedrifid is correct that no such equivalence is denoted. (The contrast can be funny. I gather it’s conventional to provide warnings for TV Tropes links.)
But I cannot quite figure out what your objection to Dawkins’ quote actually is, here. As near as I can figure it out, you seem to be saying that by adding “ignorance” to the list he is insulting ignorant people, by implicitly equating them to stupid and insane people, which is rude… whereas if he’d just said “somebody who claims not to believe in evolution is either stupid or insane” he would merely have been equating creationists with stupid and insane people, which is not rude.
Have I understood you?
No, I’m saying that Dawkin’s list contains no non pejorative options, and hence is an insult. I reject wedfridid’s alternative interpretation of ignorant that would be non pejorative.
So how would you make Dawkins’ statement—which is, and this is the actual point, a statement that is both true[1] and important—in a manner that you would find acceptable?
[1] They could of course be a liar, but you don’t have to work that one into your answer as well. Let’s go with what Dawkins said.
Dawkins quote:
First, that the somebody in question is not telling the literal truth is a very likely alternative. Some who claim they don’t believe in evolution may in fact believe in evolution, but don’t want people to know, or want to signal support for those who don’t believe in evolution.
Seems like Dawkins comment wasn’t quite so “absolutely safe” after all. To further criticize Dawkins, this is a case where he is in fact showing unwarranted intellectual arrogance, making an absolute claim of fact, when a tiny bit of reflection on Dennett’s theme of “belief in belief” would have shown him the error of his claim. I have repeatedly found that Dawkins is not at his intellectual or gentlemanly best when the evolution is questioned as a historical fact.
Second, even if you ignore the liar aspect, I don’t think the statement is true unless one plays Clintonian games with language. I could say that everyone is stupid, insane, and ignorant, and it would be true in the context I intend. But in plain, everyday English, his statement was an insult, and it was false.
On your question, I feel that there would be more value in those defending this statement as pejorative free to try to come up with a revised statement that was in fact pejorative free. But I’ll give you one of my own:
“Someone who claims to not believe in evolution is stupid or insane, or is simply ignorant of the theory of evolution and the associated evidence for it.”
Note that this hardly sugar coats the judgment on the person, and many would still find it offensive. But this at least differentiates ignorant from stupid and insane, and more importantly, it delimits the ignorance to an arguably justified scope. If I were at my gentlemanly best, I would leave out the stupid and insane parts entirely, and just say that if you don’t believe in evolution, I think you don’t understand it. Again, many would find that blunt and rude, but I guess that’s as gentlemanly as I get.
It occurs to me that Dawkins could, in a perfect world, have saved us this argument by just using “simple ignorance” instead of unadorned “ignorance”. But then, The God Delusion is annoyingly philosophically unsophisticated. Its main virtue is that it appears to work.
The book pretty much states as its explicit purpose making as many people as possible aware that being religious is a choice and that there can be alternatives. Watertight philosophical rigor would probably harm that goal.
Getting smart people to think that religion deserves seriously thought out counterarguments might just be a way for theists to keep winning anyway.
Fully watertight philosophical rigour is probably optimising the wrong thing, yes. c.f. Mencken on one horse-laugh versus ten thousand syllogisms.
That last is a reasonable try, yes. Thank you.
Ah! OK, I get it now. Yes, agreed.
This is not true. You weren’t saying this. To quote:
So it’s ok to call people stupid or insane, but it’s NOT ok to call them ignorant? I’d much rather be ignorant than stupid or insane because ignorance is a condition that can be cured rather than an inherent attribute of an individual.
And in this day of freely available education ignorance is indeed equivalent to a mental defect. At the very least it shows a defect in the natural desire to learn.
Wow. −5. That’s a record for me. And all for a quite reasonable interpretation of his words. No, for the most reasonable interpretation of his words. I’m sticking by it.