I imagine one of the cases Davis is thinking of is the same one I’m familiar with. Someone we know started experimenting with tulpas and became visibly more unstable, then shortly thereafter had a schizophrenic break and tried to kill someone, and has now been in federal prison for several years. Someone who had been working with them on tulpas then spent at least a year in an “unproductive and unstable state”, addicted to drugs etc. I know very little about tulpas themselves but knowledge of that situation makes me agree with Davis that tulpamancy is a major red flag.
That’s definitely concerning. On the other hand, there’s lots of people who don’t have that sort of side effect (and several in this thread), so I think it’s kind of rare… but perhaps this sort of result gets swept under the rug? Though, I wouldn’t predict that in advance—I’d expect it to blow up everywhere.
I’m not really sure what to think. Part of me wants to brush this off as a fluke and say that I would never break down like that but this is a failure mode that I hadn’t even considered and that makes me nervous.
Do you know if there were any factors that would have contributed to that incident? Like them already being a little schizophrenic or something along those lines?
If you had not even considered the possibility of breaking your brain in the process of trying to develop a second person, you need to step back and think more before proceeding. This failure mode should be one of the first that pops into your head, without even trying to think of novel failure modes. Right alongside intense meditation, psychedelics, etc.
I think the referent of Guy’s “this failure mode” was “breaking your brain”, not “committing murder.” This comment seemed to me like an unnecessary strawman :(
I was referring to your earlier comment, re: a schizophrenic break, etc. “Breaking your brain” sounds like permanent damage, and it is not obvious why (or how) mental activity could have effects like lead poisoning, or what differentiates mental activities that are supposedly “potentially destabilizing” from those that are not.
I agree it might have been too specific/shorten the causal chain unnecessarily:
(Potentially) Destabilizing Activity → Worse Mental Health, etc. → More likely to do crime, drugs, etc.
Sure. Seems extremely unlikely IMO. But if you’re deliberately trying to change how your brain thinks at a fundamental level rather than training an overlay like we do when learning math or something and letting that trickle down or however it usually works, you might succeed at changing but fail at direction. This is an obvious failure mode to at least consider before beginning. e.g. http://meditatinginsafety.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Kuijpers_2007.pdf
I’m no doctor or anything, but my understanding is that only people with a genetic predisposition can develop actual schizophrenia. Schizophrenia usually first manifests in a person’s twenties, if it’s going to manifest, but it’s not a sure thing – there are certain precautions you can take to make it less likely that it will develop. For example, I have a friend whose mom is schizophrenic, and he’s really careful to avoid hard drugs and other intensely mind-altering practices. So if you have anyone in your family with a history of schizophrenia, I’d be extra careful with tulpamancy.
On the other hand, there are lots of mental illnesses that don’t seem to require a family history – again, this is way outside of my realm of knowledge, but anecdotally, it seems like just about anyone can develop severe depression, hypomania, or a destructive drug habit, given the right circumstances. So if nothing else, I’d advise you to proceed with a whole lot of caution.
As for the point about getting swept under the rug: I have no familiarity with the discussion that goes on in circles that are interested in tulpamancy, but if it’s primarily self-reports, well, people who are imprisoned, dead, or severely mentally compromised wouldn’t be able to report on their status. I think I might sound like I’m trying to scare you – I guess maybe I am? It just seems really important to me to tread carefully around tulpas.
I imagine one of the cases Davis is thinking of is the same one I’m familiar with. Someone we know started experimenting with tulpas and became visibly more unstable, then shortly thereafter had a schizophrenic break and tried to kill someone, and has now been in federal prison for several years. Someone who had been working with them on tulpas then spent at least a year in an “unproductive and unstable state”, addicted to drugs etc. I know very little about tulpas themselves but knowledge of that situation makes me agree with Davis that tulpamancy is a major red flag.
That’s definitely concerning. On the other hand, there’s lots of people who don’t have that sort of side effect (and several in this thread), so I think it’s kind of rare… but perhaps this sort of result gets swept under the rug? Though, I wouldn’t predict that in advance—I’d expect it to blow up everywhere.
I’m not really sure what to think. Part of me wants to brush this off as a fluke and say that I would never break down like that but this is a failure mode that I hadn’t even considered and that makes me nervous.
Do you know if there were any factors that would have contributed to that incident? Like them already being a little schizophrenic or something along those lines?
If you had not even considered the possibility of breaking your brain in the process of trying to develop a second person, you need to step back and think more before proceeding. This failure mode should be one of the first that pops into your head, without even trying to think of novel failure modes. Right alongside intense meditation, psychedelics, etc.
You think if people meditate too much* they could end up committing murder**?
EDIT:
*Or if people have never done it before, if they do it the first time, it might destabilize their health (mental/emotional/etc.).
**This may be “too specific”, see my comment below.
I think the referent of Guy’s “this failure mode” was “breaking your brain”, not “committing murder.” This comment seemed to me like an unnecessary strawman :(
I was referring to your earlier comment, re: a schizophrenic break, etc. “Breaking your brain” sounds like permanent damage, and it is not obvious why (or how) mental activity could have effects like lead poisoning, or what differentiates mental activities that are supposedly “potentially destabilizing” from those that are not.
I agree it might have been too specific/shorten the causal chain unnecessarily:
(Potentially) Destabilizing Activity → Worse Mental Health, etc. → More likely to do crime, drugs, etc.
Sure. Seems extremely unlikely IMO. But if you’re deliberately trying to change how your brain thinks at a fundamental level rather than training an overlay like we do when learning math or something and letting that trickle down or however it usually works, you might succeed at changing but fail at direction. This is an obvious failure mode to at least consider before beginning. e.g. http://meditatinginsafety.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Kuijpers_2007.pdf
I’m no doctor or anything, but my understanding is that only people with a genetic predisposition can develop actual schizophrenia. Schizophrenia usually first manifests in a person’s twenties, if it’s going to manifest, but it’s not a sure thing – there are certain precautions you can take to make it less likely that it will develop. For example, I have a friend whose mom is schizophrenic, and he’s really careful to avoid hard drugs and other intensely mind-altering practices. So if you have anyone in your family with a history of schizophrenia, I’d be extra careful with tulpamancy.
On the other hand, there are lots of mental illnesses that don’t seem to require a family history – again, this is way outside of my realm of knowledge, but anecdotally, it seems like just about anyone can develop severe depression, hypomania, or a destructive drug habit, given the right circumstances. So if nothing else, I’d advise you to proceed with a whole lot of caution.
As for the point about getting swept under the rug: I have no familiarity with the discussion that goes on in circles that are interested in tulpamancy, but if it’s primarily self-reports, well, people who are imprisoned, dead, or severely mentally compromised wouldn’t be able to report on their status. I think I might sound like I’m trying to scare you – I guess maybe I am? It just seems really important to me to tread carefully around tulpas.