Nice story, but I feel very uncomfortable about the Stradivarius part. That (and to a lesser extent, the way Ted is treated) makes me feel more that it is an utopia for Ishtar, not for humanity as a whole. I don’t see how, funtheorically speaking, the potential lost of one of the last Stradivarii and of the hope of duplicating them, allowing for increased musical enjoyment for all humans and all to-be-born humans, can be lower than the slightly higher thrill for a one-day aventure of Ishtar.
Something like “if you chose to sacrifice the Stradivarius, you won’t ever be able to hear it, but the rest of humanity still will” would feel much more appropriate to me. But I really don’t see an utopia in which, for a bit more of fun of a single person, the whole humanity will lose something like one of the last Stardivarii.
Notice that, as far as I can tell, she chose the instrument over Ted, and may have been helped in that decision by the encounter the Machines led her to. It may have been a false option to give both her breakup with Ted and the Stradivarius more meaning.
Yeah, though the minute you take seriously the notion that the Machines are simply lying to people about the degree of real risk involved, a lot of the emotional appeal of this story is subverted. (Why anyone in this universe believes otherwise, I have no idea; possibly it’s thanks to relatively subtle mind control.)
Even in the story, once she gives Nero the Strad, he has to decide to destroy it. She doesn’t appear to have a very complete model of Nero besides “we’re rivals.”
It’s also not clear to me that presenting someone with an option you strongly suspect they’re not going to take in order to frame their choice counts as lying to them.
But I really don’t see an utopia in which, for a bit more of fun of a single person, the whole humanity will lose something like one of the last Stardivarii.
I suppose this depends on whether one is allowed to own a Stradivarius. If I own a Stradivarius, I can indeed use it to row a boat, or for target practice, or to start a campfire. If this is Ishtar’s (or the villain’s) Stradivarius, then they can play this game with it. This changes if you’re not allowed to own things, or some kinds of things, in utopia.
The question you’re asking is, in its broadest term, is it actually a good idea for actions to have potentially negative consequences for people other than the agent? (A related question is whether it’s even a good idea for actions to have potentially negative consequences for the agent.)
In my experience all answers to this question are uncomfortable if I think them through enough. Rejecting one answer because I’ve recently seen it illustrated, and choosing an opposite answer by negating that answer, just causes me to flipflop. (Or, in local terms, subjects me to Dutch Booking.)
My question is not as broad. I can accept a slight cost to external people for a great gain to one agent, under some situation. I don’t mind paying (reasonable) taxes to care for people with diseases, even diseases I know I’ll never get (like genetic diseases), I’m even in favor of it. What I was more pointing to is a scope problem : the gain to Ishtar in term of slightly higher trill for her quest seems way too low to compensate for a lost that’ll affect all presents and future humans, for some even in a comparable way (just hearing the news that the Stardivarius was destroyed can hurt more a music fan than the additional thrill Ishtar gained).
If the gain to her was high enough, and it wouldn’t be possible to get that gain (or something close enough to it) in a less harmful way to others, it could be OK. It would be a complicated question with no easy answer, a case in which I don’t trust myself to use raw consequentialism because I don’t know how to evaluate the real harm done by destroying a Stradivarius, both because I’m not enough of a music fan and because integrating the lost on all current and future humans is beyond my skill. So for high enough values of her gain I’ld be like “are you really sure you can’t give her the gain without that destruction ? and if so, well, I don’t know”.
Isn’t the point of a heroic adventure usually to not comply with options that the villian presents you with? You’re assuming that Nero 2 wins, or even has a significant chance to win.
If Nero 2 doesn’t have a significant chance to win, I think that would largely defeat the purpose of the adventure. There’s not much tension if you consider your success a foregone conclusion.
True, though this environment involves a significant element of faking/limiting dangers.
If this environment permitted high-excitement people to destroy historical artifacts on a regular basis, there wouldn’t be any left after an alarmingly short period.
Nice story, but I feel very uncomfortable about the Stradivarius part. That (and to a lesser extent, the way Ted is treated) makes me feel more that it is an utopia for Ishtar, not for humanity as a whole. I don’t see how, funtheorically speaking, the potential lost of one of the last Stradivarii and of the hope of duplicating them, allowing for increased musical enjoyment for all humans and all to-be-born humans, can be lower than the slightly higher thrill for a one-day aventure of Ishtar.
Something like “if you chose to sacrifice the Stradivarius, you won’t ever be able to hear it, but the rest of humanity still will” would feel much more appropriate to me. But I really don’t see an utopia in which, for a bit more of fun of a single person, the whole humanity will lose something like one of the last Stardivarii.
Notice that, as far as I can tell, she chose the instrument over Ted, and may have been helped in that decision by the encounter the Machines led her to. It may have been a false option to give both her breakup with Ted and the Stradivarius more meaning.
Yeah, though the minute you take seriously the notion that the Machines are simply lying to people about the degree of real risk involved, a lot of the emotional appeal of this story is subverted. (Why anyone in this universe believes otherwise, I have no idea; possibly it’s thanks to relatively subtle mind control.)
Even in the story, once she gives Nero the Strad, he has to decide to destroy it. She doesn’t appear to have a very complete model of Nero besides “we’re rivals.”
It’s also not clear to me that presenting someone with an option you strongly suspect they’re not going to take in order to frame their choice counts as lying to them.
I suppose this depends on whether one is allowed to own a Stradivarius. If I own a Stradivarius, I can indeed use it to row a boat, or for target practice, or to start a campfire. If this is Ishtar’s (or the villain’s) Stradivarius, then they can play this game with it. This changes if you’re not allowed to own things, or some kinds of things, in utopia.
The question you’re asking is, in its broadest term, is it actually a good idea for actions to have potentially negative consequences for people other than the agent? (A related question is whether it’s even a good idea for actions to have potentially negative consequences for the agent.)
In my experience all answers to this question are uncomfortable if I think them through enough. Rejecting one answer because I’ve recently seen it illustrated, and choosing an opposite answer by negating that answer, just causes me to flipflop. (Or, in local terms, subjects me to Dutch Booking.)
My question is not as broad. I can accept a slight cost to external people for a great gain to one agent, under some situation. I don’t mind paying (reasonable) taxes to care for people with diseases, even diseases I know I’ll never get (like genetic diseases), I’m even in favor of it. What I was more pointing to is a scope problem : the gain to Ishtar in term of slightly higher trill for her quest seems way too low to compensate for a lost that’ll affect all presents and future humans, for some even in a comparable way (just hearing the news that the Stardivarius was destroyed can hurt more a music fan than the additional thrill Ishtar gained).
Interesting. So if Ishtar’s quest was modified so that the gain to her was much much higher, it would be OK?
If the gain to her was high enough, and it wouldn’t be possible to get that gain (or something close enough to it) in a less harmful way to others, it could be OK. It would be a complicated question with no easy answer, a case in which I don’t trust myself to use raw consequentialism because I don’t know how to evaluate the real harm done by destroying a Stradivarius, both because I’m not enough of a music fan and because integrating the lost on all current and future humans is beyond my skill. So for high enough values of her gain I’ld be like “are you really sure you can’t give her the gain without that destruction ? and if so, well, I don’t know”.
Isn’t the point of a heroic adventure usually to not comply with options that the villian presents you with? You’re assuming that Nero 2 wins, or even has a significant chance to win.
If Nero 2 doesn’t have a significant chance to win, I think that would largely defeat the purpose of the adventure. There’s not much tension if you consider your success a foregone conclusion.
True, though this environment involves a significant element of faking/limiting dangers.
If this environment permitted high-excitement people to destroy historical artifacts on a regular basis, there wouldn’t be any left after an alarmingly short period.