“Shouldness” refers to a particular very specific way of presenting the system’s >behavior, and it’s not free energy. Notice that you can describe AI’s or man’s behavior >with physical variational principles as well, but that will have nothing to do with their >preference.
It seems to me that what SilasBarta is asking for here is a definition of shouldness such that the above statement holds. Why is it invalid to think that the system “wants” its physics? All you are indicating is that such is not what’s intended (which I’m sure SilasBarta knows)...
As far as variational principles go, one difference is that a physical system displays no preference among the different local extrema. (IIRC you can even come up with models where the same system will minimize (an) action for some initial conditions and maximize it for others.) This makes a Lagrangian-style physical system a pretty poor CSA even if you go out of your way to model it as one.
Nothing singles out a particular variational formulation of physical laws as preference, among all the other equivalent formulations. Stating that the planet wants to minimize its action or whatever is as arbitrary as saying that it wants to be a whale. Silas Barta was asserting that “free energy” is the answer, which seems to be wrong on multiple accounts.
Stating that the planet wants to minimize its action or whatever is as arbitrary as saying that it wants to be a whale. Silas Barta was asserting that “free energy” is the answer
No, I wasn’t, but I couldn’t even follow what your point was, once you started equating your own “shouldness” with the planet’s shouldness, as if that implied some kind of contradiction if they’re different. So, I didn’t follow up.
The point was, if indeed we are all fully deterministic, and planets are fully deterministic, and planets embody the laws of physics, the concept of “shouldness” must be equally applicable in both cases. (More generally, I can’t distinguish “agent” type algorithms from “non-agent” type algorithms, so I don’t know what the alternative is.)
You “could jump off that cliff, if you wanted to.” But as Eliezer_Yudkowsky notes in the link above, this statement is completely consistent with “It is physically impossible that you will jump off that cliff.” Because the “causal forces within physics that are you” cannot reach that state.
And there’s the kicker: that situation is no different from that of a planet: whatever it “wishes”, it’s physically impossible to do anything but follow the path dictated by physics.
My point about free energy was just to a) do a simple “reality check” (not the only check you can do) that would justify saying “the planet doesn’t want to be a whale”, and b) that every system will minimize its free energy with respect to a local domain of attraction. Just like how water will flow downhill spontaneously, but it won’t jump out of a basin, just because that can get it even further downhill.
Now, in the sense that people can “want the impossible”, then yes, I have no evidence that a planet doesn’t want to be a whale. What I perhaps should have said is, a planet has not identified being a whale as the goal or subgoal it is in pursuit of. Even taking this reasoning to the extreme, the very first steps toward becoming a whale, would immediately hit the hard limits of free energy minimization, and so the planet could never even begin such a path—not viewed as a single entity.
Now, in the sense that people can “want the impossible”, then yes, I have no evidence that a planet doesn’t want to be a whale.
Yup, that’s the case. This concept is meaningful because sometimes unexpected opportunities appear and the predictably impossible turns into an option. Or, more constructively, this concept is required to implement external “help” that is known in advance to be welcome.
It seems to me that what SilasBarta is asking for here is a definition of shouldness such that the above statement holds. Why is it invalid to think that the system “wants” its physics? All you are indicating is that such is not what’s intended (which I’m sure SilasBarta knows)...
As far as variational principles go, one difference is that a physical system displays no preference among the different local extrema. (IIRC you can even come up with models where the same system will minimize (an) action for some initial conditions and maximize it for others.) This makes a Lagrangian-style physical system a pretty poor CSA even if you go out of your way to model it as one.
CSAs can’t escape local optima either … unless you found your global optimum without telling us ;-)
Nothing singles out a particular variational formulation of physical laws as preference, among all the other equivalent formulations. Stating that the planet wants to minimize its action or whatever is as arbitrary as saying that it wants to be a whale. Silas Barta was asserting that “free energy” is the answer, which seems to be wrong on multiple accounts.
No, I wasn’t, but I couldn’t even follow what your point was, once you started equating your own “shouldness” with the planet’s shouldness, as if that implied some kind of contradiction if they’re different. So, I didn’t follow up.
The point was, if indeed we are all fully deterministic, and planets are fully deterministic, and planets embody the laws of physics, the concept of “shouldness” must be equally applicable in both cases. (More generally, I can’t distinguish “agent” type algorithms from “non-agent” type algorithms, so I don’t know what the alternative is.)
You “could jump off that cliff, if you wanted to.” But as Eliezer_Yudkowsky notes in the link above, this statement is completely consistent with “It is physically impossible that you will jump off that cliff.” Because the “causal forces within physics that are you” cannot reach that state.
And there’s the kicker: that situation is no different from that of a planet: whatever it “wishes”, it’s physically impossible to do anything but follow the path dictated by physics.
My point about free energy was just to a) do a simple “reality check” (not the only check you can do) that would justify saying “the planet doesn’t want to be a whale”, and b) that every system will minimize its free energy with respect to a local domain of attraction. Just like how water will flow downhill spontaneously, but it won’t jump out of a basin, just because that can get it even further downhill.
Now, in the sense that people can “want the impossible”, then yes, I have no evidence that a planet doesn’t want to be a whale. What I perhaps should have said is, a planet has not identified being a whale as the goal or subgoal it is in pursuit of. Even taking this reasoning to the extreme, the very first steps toward becoming a whale, would immediately hit the hard limits of free energy minimization, and so the planet could never even begin such a path—not viewed as a single entity.
Yup, that’s the case. This concept is meaningful because sometimes unexpected opportunities appear and the predictably impossible turns into an option. Or, more constructively, this concept is required to implement external “help” that is known in advance to be welcome.