Yes to all. To add an attributable citation for the concept of tian 天, here is a comment I wrote six months ago.
天 refers to material things which affect you but which you yourself lack the power to significantly influence. The standard and most poetic translation of 天 is “heaven”, but 天 also includes the gods, fate, sky, weather, climate and all the other material things far above you. To the median person living today, 天 includes everything from the Federal Reserve to the orbit of Jupiter.
Many readers of Less Wrong come from a Western intellectual tradition where “heaven” is a moral immaterial Christian concept. I’m trying to draw attention to the fact that 天 is an amoral material relationship.
Note the link I use for “the gods”. These are contradictory polytheistic gods, not coherent monotheistic gods.
Whether to describe Confucianism as spiritual depends on what you mean by “Confucianism” and “spiritual”. Consider this scene from Mulan. It has spiritual elements but I would hesitate to describe it as “spiritual”. It is related to Confucianism but the religious parts come from ancestor worship.
First, I believe I can appreciate the subtlety and nuance, as well as the sublimity of a concept like ‘Tian’ although I don’t speak Chinese. I can also appreciate the difficulty of trying to describe a concept like that, and especially the difficulty of translating from an Eastern language into a Western language.
I’m trying to draw attention to the fact that 天 is an amoral material relationship.
I do think this is an especially important point as it relates to Confucianism. It’s the amoral aspect of this philosophy/tradition/practice which results in a society, social structure and hierarchy based on tradition, ritual, etiquette and proper protocol, instead of on passion, emotion, and individual expression.
It’s this traditional Chinese Culture which is at risk of being lost to the Contemporary Western world, and possibly to a fair amount of the Eastern world as well. This is why it is important to study, as so much of the ‘effects’ we experience around the world today, have their ‘causes’ in this incredibly long and important history of China and it’s neighbors.
As it pertains to governing, Confucianisms concern with the materiality of the world, and it’s correct organization sets it apart from Western Tradition as well. In Judeo-Christian tradition, Man has dominion over nature, and is favored by a Monotheistic God over all other life. It is the paganistic sin filled, base human desires of the animal part of humans which corrupts society.
In Eastern Tradition, I believe it’s the case that Man is considered only one part of Nature, and it is humanities skill at noticing and correctly interpreting the patterns of the world (the world of the gods) which define success or failure, and it is actually the man-made society which corrupts human nature.
I haven’t seen Mulan, and I’m honestly curious to hear the true thoughts and feelings of Chinese regarding the Disneyfication of that part of Chinese history. That was definitely an attempt at acknowledging a spiritual tradition of a non-Judeo-Christian civilization on Disney’s part.
As for the imagery, I do wonder why she was praying at the foot of a dragon statute. I honestly don’t know if that’s a realistic portrayal of the circumstances or not, but knowing Disney, I’m pretty sure it’s not.
I honestly appreciate the Interesting nod to pop culture though; well played.
However, all seriousness aside, I think we can add that to Americanized Chinese Food and Kung-Fu Flicks to round out a majority of the Western Cultures ideas about Eastern Culture. Why should we bother to learn about Chinese Culture and History when the Chinese spend so much of their time learning English and Western History and Culture? s/
Yes to all. To add an attributable citation for the concept of tian 天, here is a comment I wrote six months ago.
Note the link I use for “the gods”. These are contradictory polytheistic gods, not coherent monotheistic gods.
Whether to describe Confucianism as spiritual depends on what you mean by “Confucianism” and “spiritual”. Consider this scene from Mulan. It has spiritual elements but I would hesitate to describe it as “spiritual”. It is related to Confucianism but the religious parts come from ancestor worship.
Alot going on here.
First, I believe I can appreciate the subtlety and nuance, as well as the sublimity of a concept like ‘Tian’ although I don’t speak Chinese. I can also appreciate the difficulty of trying to describe a concept like that, and especially the difficulty of translating from an Eastern language into a Western language.
I do think this is an especially important point as it relates to Confucianism. It’s the amoral aspect of this philosophy/tradition/practice which results in a society, social structure and hierarchy based on tradition, ritual, etiquette and proper protocol, instead of on passion, emotion, and individual expression.
It’s this traditional Chinese Culture which is at risk of being lost to the Contemporary Western world, and possibly to a fair amount of the Eastern world as well. This is why it is important to study, as so much of the ‘effects’ we experience around the world today, have their ‘causes’ in this incredibly long and important history of China and it’s neighbors.
As it pertains to governing, Confucianisms concern with the materiality of the world, and it’s correct organization sets it apart from Western Tradition as well. In Judeo-Christian tradition, Man has dominion over nature, and is favored by a Monotheistic God over all other life. It is the paganistic sin filled, base human desires of the animal part of humans which corrupts society.
In Eastern Tradition, I believe it’s the case that Man is considered only one part of Nature, and it is humanities skill at noticing and correctly interpreting the patterns of the world (the world of the gods) which define success or failure, and it is actually the man-made society which corrupts human nature.
I haven’t seen Mulan, and I’m honestly curious to hear the true thoughts and feelings of Chinese regarding the Disneyfication of that part of Chinese history. That was definitely an attempt at acknowledging a spiritual tradition of a non-Judeo-Christian civilization on Disney’s part.
As for the imagery, I do wonder why she was praying at the foot of a dragon statute. I honestly don’t know if that’s a realistic portrayal of the circumstances or not, but knowing Disney, I’m pretty sure it’s not.
I honestly appreciate the Interesting nod to pop culture though; well played.
However, all seriousness aside, I think we can add that to Americanized Chinese Food and Kung-Fu Flicks to round out a majority of the Western Cultures ideas about Eastern Culture. Why should we bother to learn about Chinese Culture and History when the Chinese spend so much of their time learning English and Western History and Culture? s/