I’ll be curious to hear if anyone has had positive experiences with Modafinil, especially people for whom the more traditional stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall were ineffective. That’s the category I find myself in (I have a moderate–severe case of ADD which has resisted attempts to treat it so far).
I have no sources, but if modafinil was actually effective for moderate-severe ADHD the drug company probably would have tried to get it approved to treat ADHD. They must have run at least some studies to determine that FDA approval for ADHD treatment was not going to happen.
Anecdotally, I believe that most psychiatrists only try modafanil for relatively mild ADHD in adults and usually only if the drug is requested by the patient.
My intuition on this is because amphetamine is just a much, much stronger drug than modafanil.
They are different types of drugs, sure. The most likely way for my comment to not be true is if ata stopped taking amphetamine not because it was ineffective, but because of the side effect profile. Modafanil does have a milder side effect profile. Failing that, modafanil would only probably really work for severe ADHD if it fixes a specific brain defect—possible, but it seems unlikely.
Edit: This claims that the FDA rejection for modafanil was because of a single very adverse reaction of the frequently lethal Steven Johnsons Syndrome, where the diagnosis was later recanted. Not sure if that is the whole truth, but it means my premise is somewhat less likely based on the evidence. My intuition still holds. http://www.modafinil.com/
How does the lesswrong crowd feel about these recent stories? Having grown up in Europe I’ve always found the North American faith in treating psychological conditions with drugs a bit odd, I feel vindicated reading stories like this but I wonder if it is just cultural bias?
Have I got the right link there? The post I found was just a reference to the difficulty of properly accounting for the placebo effect when drugs have obvious side effect profiles.
On that tangent active placebos can be fascinating. For example, studies investigating the effect of psyclobin which use ritalin as an active placebo (to match the euphoria experience).
Robin Hanson expands on the story a bit. My general impression is that the US has adopted a number of drugs which are worse on most dimensions than those that are deemed illegal partly due to a crappy system for approving chemicals.
I think the placebo effect is pretty interesting. I also think the powerful effect of many illegal psychoactive substances is pretty interesting. I find it unfortunate that the FDA has such a powerful role in deciding what constitutes legitimate investigation of either.
I’m not going to argue and say that the FDA system is good; but I’m happy that with a system as deeply flawed as the FDA that more deadly drugs don’t hit the market. Sure, lots of people die because there are working unapproved illegal treatments, but out of all of the unfortunate US government institutions, the FDA is not the worst.
I think that faith comes because psychological conditions often can be treated successfully treated with drugs. Some severe mental health conditions mostly require drugs for successful treatment.
However, there is certainly overmedication and that’s because it is easier and cheaper to medicate than to provide therapy. A study was done showing that ADHD medication is effective in children for the short term, but therapy (CBT, I think, which when done on children with ADHD is much more like a personal anti-akrasia trainer than sitting on the couch telling Freud about the problems with your mother)
) is effective in the long term. The problem is that many children show an immediate improvement in behavior after taking the drugs, so the therapy doesn’t continue but the drugs do continue. This is more likely when it is a primary care physician prescribing the drugs rather than a psychiatrist.
I have had experience with it (as I mentioned. I match the symptom cluster that gives an ADD diagnosis. I find modafinil somewhat useful but mostly because it gives the same all round boost to functioning that you get from more sleep. I found it more useful than Ritalin but I am not necessarily saying that as an advocation. Unfortunately ADD can involve too much focus as well as too little. In my case Ritalin just made me more excessively focussed. It worked as a performance enhancer but definitely not as a treatment.
So I’ll join Douglas in supporting Kevin’s recommendation. Try it and see if it is useful. It is for many. But don’t have huge expectations if you have already tried amphetamine and methamphetamine.
You no doubt already know what the most effective treatment is. 45 minutes a day of strenuous cardiovascular exercise, eating well, keeping connected with a positive social network and doing something that you love to do.
I’ll be curious to hear if anyone has had positive experiences with Modafinil, especially people for whom the more traditional stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall were ineffective. That’s the category I find myself in (I have a moderate–severe case of ADD which has resisted attempts to treat it so far).
If Ritalin and Adderall don’t work for you I think it unlikely that Modafinil would work, but I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to try.
Do you have any sources backing this?
If Adderall does not work for you then it’s less likely that Ritalin would, and vice versa.
This does not necessarily hold true going from stimulants to eugeroics.
I have no sources, but if modafinil was actually effective for moderate-severe ADHD the drug company probably would have tried to get it approved to treat ADHD. They must have run at least some studies to determine that FDA approval for ADHD treatment was not going to happen.
Anecdotally, I believe that most psychiatrists only try modafanil for relatively mild ADHD in adults and usually only if the drug is requested by the patient.
My intuition on this is because amphetamine is just a much, much stronger drug than modafanil.
They are different types of drugs, sure. The most likely way for my comment to not be true is if ata stopped taking amphetamine not because it was ineffective, but because of the side effect profile. Modafanil does have a milder side effect profile. Failing that, modafanil would only probably really work for severe ADHD if it fixes a specific brain defect—possible, but it seems unlikely.
Edit: This claims that the FDA rejection for modafanil was because of a single very adverse reaction of the frequently lethal Steven Johnsons Syndrome, where the diagnosis was later recanted. Not sure if that is the whole truth, but it means my premise is somewhat less likely based on the evidence. My intuition still holds. http://www.modafinil.com/
How does the lesswrong crowd feel about these recent stories? Having grown up in Europe I’ve always found the North American faith in treating psychological conditions with drugs a bit odd, I feel vindicated reading stories like this but I wonder if it is just cultural bias?
Have I got the right link there? The post I found was just a reference to the difficulty of properly accounting for the placebo effect when drugs have obvious side effect profiles.
On that tangent active placebos can be fascinating. For example, studies investigating the effect of psyclobin which use ritalin as an active placebo (to match the euphoria experience).
Robin Hanson expands on the story a bit. My general impression is that the US has adopted a number of drugs which are worse on most dimensions than those that are deemed illegal partly due to a crappy system for approving chemicals.
I think the placebo effect is pretty interesting. I also think the powerful effect of many illegal psychoactive substances is pretty interesting. I find it unfortunate that the FDA has such a powerful role in deciding what constitutes legitimate investigation of either.
I’m not going to argue and say that the FDA system is good; but I’m happy that with a system as deeply flawed as the FDA that more deadly drugs don’t hit the market. Sure, lots of people die because there are working unapproved illegal treatments, but out of all of the unfortunate US government institutions, the FDA is not the worst.
I think that faith comes because psychological conditions often can be treated successfully treated with drugs. Some severe mental health conditions mostly require drugs for successful treatment.
However, there is certainly overmedication and that’s because it is easier and cheaper to medicate than to provide therapy. A study was done showing that ADHD medication is effective in children for the short term, but therapy (CBT, I think, which when done on children with ADHD is much more like a personal anti-akrasia trainer than sitting on the couch telling Freud about the problems with your mother) ) is effective in the long term. The problem is that many children show an immediate improvement in behavior after taking the drugs, so the therapy doesn’t continue but the drugs do continue. This is more likely when it is a primary care physician prescribing the drugs rather than a psychiatrist.
I have had experience with it (as I mentioned. I match the symptom cluster that gives an ADD diagnosis. I find modafinil somewhat useful but mostly because it gives the same all round boost to functioning that you get from more sleep. I found it more useful than Ritalin but I am not necessarily saying that as an advocation. Unfortunately ADD can involve too much focus as well as too little. In my case Ritalin just made me more excessively focussed. It worked as a performance enhancer but definitely not as a treatment.
So I’ll join Douglas in supporting Kevin’s recommendation. Try it and see if it is useful. It is for many. But don’t have huge expectations if you have already tried amphetamine and methamphetamine.
You no doubt already know what the most effective treatment is. 45 minutes a day of strenuous cardiovascular exercise, eating well, keeping connected with a positive social network and doing something that you love to do.
google, FWIW
I have no experience, but I think Kevin is right.