...you will see that I expect the current mass extinction to intensify tremendously. However, I am not clear about how or why that would be bad. Surely it is a near-inevitable result of progress.
Rapid change drives species to extinction at a rate liable to endanger the function of ecosystems we rely on. Massive extinction events are in no way an inevitable consequence of improving the livelihoods of humans, although I’m not optimistic about our prospects of actually avoiding them.
Loss of a large percentage of the species on earth would hurt us, both in practical terms and as a matter of widely shared preference. As a species, we would almost certainly survive anthropogenic climate change even if it caused a runaway mass extinction event, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not an outcome that would be better to avoid if possible. Frankly, I don’t expect legislation or social agitation ever to have an adequate impact in halting anthropogenic global warming; unless we come up with some really clever hack, the battle is going to be lost, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be aware of what we stand to lose, and take notice if any viable means of avoiding it arises.
The argument suggesting that we should move away from the “cliff edge” of reglaciation is that it is dangerous hanging around there—and we really don’t want to fall off.
You seem to be saying that we should be cautious about moving too fast—in case we break something. Very well, I agree entirely—so: let us study the whole issue while moving as rapidly away from the danger zone as we feel is reasonably safe.
As I already noted, as best indicated by our calculations we have already overshot the goal of preventing the next glaciation period. Moving away from the danger zone at a reasonably safe pace would mean a major reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
CO2 apparently helps—but even that is uncertain. I would want to see a very convincing case that we are far enough from the edge for the risk of reglaciation to be over before advocating hanging around on the reglaciation cliff-edge. Short of eliminating the ice caps, it is difficult to imagine what would be convincing. Those ice caps are potentially major bad news for life on the planet—and some industrial CO2 is little reassurance—since that could relatively quickly become trapped inside plants and then buried.
The global ice caps have been around for millions of years now. Life on earth is adapted to climates that sustain them. They do not constitute “major bad news for life on this planet.” Reglaciation would pose problems for human civilization, but the onset of glaciation occurs at a much slower rate than the warming we’re already subjecting the planet to, and as such even if raising CO2 levels above what they’ve been since before the glaciations began in the Pleistocene were not enough to prevent the next round, it would still be a less pressing issue.
On a geological time scale, the amount of CO2 we’ve released could quickly be trapped in plants and buried, but with the state of human civilization as it is, how do you suppose that would actually happen quickly enough to be meaningful for the purposes of this discussion?
The global ice caps have been around for millions of years now. Life on earth is adapted to climates that sustain them. They do not constitute “major bad news for life on this planet.”
The ice age is a pretty major problem for the planet. Huge ice sheets obliterate most life on the northern hemisphere continents every 100 thousand years or so.
Re: reglaciation being slow—the last reglaciation looked slower than the last melt. The one before that happened at about the same speed. However, they both look like runaway positive feedback processes. Once the process has started it may not be easy to stop it.
Thinking of reglaciation as “not pressing” seems like a quick way to get reglaciated. Humans have got to intervene in the planet’s climate and warm it up in order to avoid this disaster. Leaving the climate alone would be a recipe for reglaciation. Pumping CO2 into the atmosphere may have saved us from disaster already, may save us from disaster in the future, may merely be a step in the right direction—or may be pretty ineffectual. However, it is important to realise that humans have got to take steps to warm the planet up—otherwise our whole civilisation may be quickly screwed.
We don’t know that industrial CO2 will protect us from reglaciation—since we don’t yet fully understand the latter process—though we do know that it devastates the planet like clockwork, and so has an astronomical origin.
The atmosphere has a CO2 decay function with an estimated half-life time of somwhere between 20-100 years. It wouldn’t vanish overnight—but a lot of it could go pretty quickly if civilisation problems resulted in a cessation of production.
Hopefully—if we have enough of a civilisation at the time. Reglaciation seems likely to only really be a threat after a major disaster or setback—I figure. Otherwise, we can just adjust the climate controls. The chances of such a major setback may seem slender—but perhaps are not so small that we can afford to be blazee about the matter. What we don’t want is to fall down the stairs—and then be kicked in the teeth.
We don’t know great many things, but what to do right now, we must decide right now, based on whatever we happen to know. (To address the reason for Desrtopa’s comment, if not any problem with your comment on this topic I’m completely ignorant about.)
If you are concerned about loss of potentially valuable information in the form of species extinction, global warming seems like total fluff. Look instead to habitat destruction and decimation, farming practices, and the resistribution of pathogens, predators and competitors by humans.
I do look at all these issues. I’ve spoken at conferences about how they receive too little attention relative to the danger they pose. That doesn’t mean that global warming does not stand to cause major harm, and going on the basis of the content of your site, you don’t seem to have invested adequate effort into researching the potential dangers, only the potential benefits.
Really? Don’t you hear enough about the supposed potential dangers from elsewhere already?!? I certainly do.
Be advised that I have pretty minimal effort to invest in discussing global warming these days. It is a big environmentalist scam. I list it at the top of my list of bad causes here.
The only reason worth discussing it—IMO—is if you are trying to direct all the resources that are being senselessly squandered on it towards better ends. You show little sign of doing that. Rather you appear to be caught up in promoting the lunacy. Global warming is mostly fluff. WAKE UP! Bigger fish are frying.
Frankly, reviewing the content of your site strongly leads me to suspect that your position is not credible; you consistently fail to accurately present what scientists consider to be the reasons for concern. When you claim that global warming is mostly fluff, I already have stronger reason than usual to suspect that you haven’t come by your conclusion from an unbiased review of the data.
I would care much less about bothering to convince you if you were not hosting a website for the purpose of convincing others to support furthering global warming, and despite the fact that there is now virtually no controversy that global warming exists, that we are causing it, and that the negatives will outweigh the positives, many people will take any excuse to dismiss it.
you consistently fail to accurately present what scientists consider to be the reasons for concern
My site doesn’t go into the down-sides of global warming sufficiently for you?!? My main purpose is to explain the advantages. My site is part of the internet. You can obtain a huge mountain of information about the disadvantages by following the links. I do not expect readers to use my site as their sole source of information on the topic.
despite the fact that there is now virtually no controversy that global warming exists, that we are causing it, and that the negatives will outweigh the positives, many people will take any excuse to dismiss it.
There is little controversy that global warming exists. There’s quite a bit more controversy about the role of humans—though my personal view is that humans are implicated. Relatively few people seem to have given much thought to the optimal temperature of the planet for living systems. Certainly very few of those involved in the “global warming movement”.
Anyway, global warming is good. It may have saved the planet from reglaciation already, or it may do so in the future, but without global warming, the planet and our civilisation would be screwed for a long time, with high probabality. The effects so far have been pretty miniscule, though. We have to carry on warming up the planet on basic safety grounds. The only issue I see is: “how fast”.
My site doesn’t go into the down-sides of global warming sufficiently for you?!? My main purpose is to explain the advantages. My site is part of the internet. You can obtain a huge mountain of information about the disadvantages by following the links. I do not expect readers to use my site as their sole source of information on the topic.
Your representations of the downsides (forest fires and floods) are actively misleading to readers. You create a false comparison by weighing all the most significant pros you can raise against a few of the more trivial cons, and encourage readers to make a judgment on that basis. Remember that people tend to actively seek out information sources that support their own views, and once they have adopted a view, seeing arguments for it falsified will not tend to revise their confidence downwards. Additionally, there is no shortage of people who will seize on any remotely credible sounding excuse to vindicate them from having to worry about global warming. Your site runs counter to the purpose of informing the public.
Anyway, global warming is good. It may have saved the planet from reglaciation already, or it may do so in the future, but without global warming, the planet and our civilisation would be screwed for a long time, with high probabality. The effects so far have been pretty miniscule, though. We have to carry on warming up the planet on basic safety grounds. The only issue I see is: “how fast”.
If global warming has already prevented reglaciation (which, as I have stated repeatedly, is most likely the case,) then why should we continue warming the planet? Unless we slow it down by orders of magnitude, the warming is occurring faster than the geological timescales on which ecosystems without technological protection are equipped to cope with it. Onset of glaciation is much slower than the progress of global warming. We are closer to the “cliff edge” of warming the world too fast than we are to reglaciation.
You’ve already stated that you consider global warming to be a storm in a teacup because you expect to see weather control before it becomes a serious issue, but even assuming that’s realistic, it gives us a larger time window to deal with reglaciation, should we turn out not to have already prevented it.
there is no shortage of people who will seize on any remotely credible sounding excuse to vindicate them from having to worry about global warming
There is no shortage of people with smoke coming out of their ears about the issue either.
Look, I don’t just mention fires and floods. I mention sea-level rise, coral reef damage, desertification, heatstroke, and a number of other disadvantages. However, the disadvantages of GW are not the main focus of my article—you can find them on a million other web sites.
If global warming has already prevented reglaciation (which, as I have stated repeatedly, is most likely the case,) then why should we continue warming the—planet?
Repeating something doesn’t make it true. Show that the risk is so small that we need no longer concern ourselves with the huge catastrophe it would represent, and I swear, I will not mention it again. The current situation—as I understand it—is that our understanding of glaciation cycles is weak, our understanding of climate dynamics is weak, and we have little idea of what risk of reglaciation we face.
Of course, a warmer planet will still be healthier and better one—risk of glaciation or no—but then warming it up becomes less urgent.
Onset of glaciation is much slower than the progress of global warming. We are closer to the “cliff edge” of warming the world too fast than we are to reglaciation.
There isn’t a “cliff-edge” of warming nearby—AFAICS. If you look at the temperature graph of the last million years, we are at a high point—and about to fall off a cliff into a glacial phase. The other direction we can only “fall” in by rearranging the continents, so there isn’t land over the south pole, and a land-locked region around the north pole. With ice-age continental positions, warming the planet is more like struggling uphill.
One thing we could try and do about that is to destroy the Isthmus of Panama. However, that needs further research—and might be a lot of work.
You’ve already stated that you consider global warming to be a storm in a teacup because you expect to see weather control before it becomes a serious issue, but even assuming that’s realistic, it gives us a larger time window to deal with reglaciation, should we turn out not to have already prevented it.
Indeed. So, I only have one page about the topic, and thousands of pages about other things. As I said, this area is only of interest as a bad cause, really.
There is no shortage of people with smoke coming out of their ears about the issue either.
Look, I don’t just mention fires and floods. I mention sea-level rise, coral reef damage, desertification, heatstroke, and a number of other disadvantages. However, the disadvantages of GW are not the main focus of my article—you can find them on a million other web sites.
It’s true that there are people with an unrealistic view of the dangers that global warming poses, and hyperbolic reactions may stand to hurt the cause of getting people to take it seriously, but your expectations of how seriously people ought to be taking it are artificially low.
You don’t just mention fires and floods, this is true, but you invite readers to make a comparison of the pros and cons without accurately presenting the cons. If you don’t want to mislead people, you should either be presenting them more accurately, or outright telling people “This site does not accurately present the cons of global warming, and you should not form an opinion on the basis of this site without doing further research at sites not dedicated to arguing against the threats it may pose.”
You can claim that your readers are free to research the issue elsewhere, but what you are doing is encouraging them to be informationally irresponsible.
There isn’t a “cliff-edge” of warming nearby—AFAICS. If you look at the temperature graph of the last million years, we are at a high point—and about to fall off a cliff into a glacial phase. The other direction we can only “fall” in by rearranging the continents, so there isn’t land over the south pole, and a land-locked region around the north pole. With ice-age continental positions, warming the planet is more like struggling uphill.
As you have already noted earlier in this debate, ice sheet melting is a runaway positive feedback process. Once we have started the cycle, warming the planet is not an uphill struggle. If you look at the temperature graph of the last million years, you will not see that we are about to fall into another glaciation period, because the climate record of the last million years does not reflect the current situation. Even if greenhouse gas levels halted where they are now, temperature would continue to rise to meet the level they set. Our climate situation is more reflective of the Pliocene, which did not have cyclical glaciation periods.
Repeating something doesn’t make it true. Show that the risk is so small that we need no longer concern ourselves with the huge catastrophe it would represent, and I swear, I will not mention it again. The current situation—as I understand it—is that our understanding of glaciation cycles is weak, our understanding of climate dynamics is weak, and we have little idea of what risk of reglaciation we face.
I don’t have the articles on which I based the statement; I would need access to materials from courses I’ve already graduated. I may be able to get the data by contacting old professors, but there’s a significant hassle barrier, particularly since I’m arguing with someone who I do not have a strong expectation of being receptive to new information. If I do retrieve the information, do you commit to revising your site to reflect it, or removing the site as obsolete?
You can claim that your readers are free to research the issue elsewhere, but what you are doing is encouraging them to be informationally irresponsible.
You what? You are starting to irritate me with your unsolicited editorial advice. Don’t like my web page—go and make your own!
As you have already noted earlier in this debate, ice sheet melting is a runaway positive feedback process.
Yes—from the point of full glaciation to little glaciation, ice core evidence suggests this process is a relatively unstoppable one-way slide. However, we have gone down that slide already in this glacial cycle. Trying to push the temperature upward from there hasn’t happened naturally for millions of years. That doesn’t look so easy—while we still have an ice-age continental configuration.
If you look at the temperature graph of the last million years, you will not see that we are about to fall into another glaciation period, because the climate record of the last million years does not reflect the current situation.
That sounds more like ignoring the temperature graph—and considering other information—to me.
If I do retrieve the information, do you commit to revising your site to reflect it, or removing the site as obsolete?
You are kidding, presumably. The information needs to be compelling evidence that there isn’t a significant risk. Whether you retreive it or not seems likely to be a minor factor.
As I previously explained, a warmer planet would still be better, reglaciation risk or no. More of the planet would be habitable, fewer would die of pneumonia, there would be fewer deserts—and so on. However, the reglaciation risk does add urgency to the situation.
You what? You are starting to irritate me with your unsolicited editorial advice. Don’t like my web page—go and make your own!
Given that people tend to seek out informational sources that flatter their biases, and your website is one of relatively few sources attempting to convince people that the data suggests global warming is positive, making another website has less utility to me than convincing you to revise yours.
That sounds more like ignoring the temperature graph—and considering other information—to me.
It is considering the temperature graph insofar as it is relevant, while incorporating other information that is more reflective of our current situation. Would you try to extrapolate technological advances in the next twenty years based on the average rate of technological advancement over the last six hundred?
Yes—from the point of full glaciation to little glaciation, ice core evidence suggests this process is a relatively unstoppable one-way slide. However, we have gone down that slide already in this glacial cycle. Trying to push the temperature upward from there hasn’t happened naturally for millions of years. That doesn’t look so easy—while we still have an ice-age continental configuration.
We had more or less the same continental configuration in the Pliocene, without cyclical glaciation periods.
You are kidding, presumably. The information needs to be compelling evidence that there isn’t a significant risk. Whether you retreive it or not seems likely to be a minor factor.
As I previously explained, a warmer planet would still be better, reglaciation risk or no. More of the planet would be habitable, fewer would die of pneumonia, there would be fewer deserts—and so on. However, the reglaciation risk does add urgency to the situation.
Climate zones would shift, necessitating massive relocations which would cause major infrastructure damage. If we alter the earth’s temperature to make larger proportions of the land mass optimally biologically suitable to humans, we are going to do tremendous damage to species that are not adapted to near-equatorial habitation, and the impact on those other species is going to cause more problems than the relatively small drop in rates of pneumonia.
How compelling would you expect the evidence to be in order for you to be willing to revise the content of your site?
We had more or less the same continental configuration in the Pliocene, without cyclical glaciation periods.
I am not sure what you are getting at there. Continental configuration is one factor. There may be other ones—including astronomical influences.
How compelling would you expect the evidence to be in order for you to be willing to revise the content of your site?
Why do you think it needs revising? A warmer planet looks remarkably positive—while keeping the planet in the freezer does not. I am not very impressed by the argument that change is painful, so we should keep the planet in an ice-age climate. Anyway, lots of evidence that global warming is undesirable—and that a half-frozen planet is good—would cause me to revise my position. However, I don’t seriously expect that to happen. That is a misguided lie—and a cause of much wasted energy and resources on the planet.
Why do you think it needs revising? Global warming looks remarkably positive—while keeping the planet in the freezer does not. I am not very impressed by the argument that change is painful, so we should keep the planet in an ice-age climate. Anyway, lots of evidence that global warming is undesirable—and that a half-frozen planet is good—would cause me to revise my position. However, I don’t expect that to happen. That is a misguided lie—and a cause of much wasted energy and resources on the planet.
Since you do not seem prepared to acknowledge the more significant dangers of rapid climate change, while substantially overstating the benefits of altering the entire planet to suit the biological preferences of a species that adapted to life near the equator, I doubt you would be swayed by the amount of evidence that should be (and, I assert, is,) forthcoming if you are wrong. I expect that most of the other members here already regard your position with an appropriate degree of skepticism, so while it frustrates me to leave the matter at rest while I am convinced that your position is untenable, I don’t see any benefit in continuing to participate in this debate.
Thanks for the link, though. It will be interesting to see whether their ideas stand up to peer review. If so, it seems like bad news—the authors seem to think the forces that lead to reglaciation are due to kick in around about now.
I don’t see any benefit in continuing to participate in this debate.
The reason for the shift to the term “climate change” over “global warming” is that climate zones would shift. Places that were previously not arable would become so, but places that previously were arable would cease to be. It would require a significant restructuring of our civilization to chase around the climate zones with the appropriate infrastructure.
Looking at a map …the warming occurs quite a bit more near the poles—and over land masses. So, mostly Canada and Russia will get less frosty and more cosy. That seems good. It would be hard to imagine a more positive kind of climate change than one that makes our large and mostly barren northern wastelands more productive and habitable places.
It would require a significant restructuring of our civilization to chase around the climate zones with the appropriate infrastructure.
Right—over tens of thousands of years, probably. The Antarctic is pretty thick.
A dead-pan presentation washes out my character—and means I have to be more wordy to get across my intended message. Who knows if a slap will work? Not me. Consider it an experiment.
A dead-pan presentation washes out my character—and means I have to be more wordy to get across my intended message.
I would be wary of overloading your message. Consider this as a core:
“My heavily researched impression is that global warming, while somewhat concerning, is significantly less important than many other concerns.”
Now, we dress that up. Notice the impact the following change has on you:
“I, Vaniver, have heavily researched global warming, and my impression is that while it is somewhat concerning, it is significantly less important than many other concerns.”
Most of the time, putting yourself into the message reduces persuasiveness, and the places where it doesn’t probably don’t occur during abstract debates. (Persuading someone to share their lunch with you is an example of an appropriate time, but I wouldn’t call it an abstract debate.) So while some character is inevitable, I would generally seek to err on the side of suppressing it rather than expressing it.
I am not sure I am following. You are saying that such changes are bad—because they drive species towards extinction?
If you look at: http://alife.co.uk/essays/engineered_future/
...you will see that I expect the current mass extinction to intensify tremendously. However, I am not clear about how or why that would be bad. Surely it is a near-inevitable result of progress.
Rapid change drives species to extinction at a rate liable to endanger the function of ecosystems we rely on. Massive extinction events are in no way an inevitable consequence of improving the livelihoods of humans, although I’m not optimistic about our prospects of actually avoiding them.
Loss of a large percentage of the species on earth would hurt us, both in practical terms and as a matter of widely shared preference. As a species, we would almost certainly survive anthropogenic climate change even if it caused a runaway mass extinction event, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not an outcome that would be better to avoid if possible. Frankly, I don’t expect legislation or social agitation ever to have an adequate impact in halting anthropogenic global warming; unless we come up with some really clever hack, the battle is going to be lost, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be aware of what we stand to lose, and take notice if any viable means of avoiding it arises.
The argument suggesting that we should move away from the “cliff edge” of reglaciation is that it is dangerous hanging around there—and we really don’t want to fall off.
You seem to be saying that we should be cautious about moving too fast—in case we break something. Very well, I agree entirely—so: let us study the whole issue while moving as rapidly away from the danger zone as we feel is reasonably safe.
As I already noted, as best indicated by our calculations we have already overshot the goal of preventing the next glaciation period. Moving away from the danger zone at a reasonably safe pace would mean a major reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
We don’t know that. The science of this isn’t settled. The Milankovitch hypothesis of glaciation is more band-aid than theory. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles#Problems
CO2 apparently helps—but even that is uncertain. I would want to see a very convincing case that we are far enough from the edge for the risk of reglaciation to be over before advocating hanging around on the reglaciation cliff-edge. Short of eliminating the ice caps, it is difficult to imagine what would be convincing. Those ice caps are potentially major bad news for life on the planet—and some industrial CO2 is little reassurance—since that could relatively quickly become trapped inside plants and then buried.
The global ice caps have been around for millions of years now. Life on earth is adapted to climates that sustain them. They do not constitute “major bad news for life on this planet.” Reglaciation would pose problems for human civilization, but the onset of glaciation occurs at a much slower rate than the warming we’re already subjecting the planet to, and as such even if raising CO2 levels above what they’ve been since before the glaciations began in the Pleistocene were not enough to prevent the next round, it would still be a less pressing issue.
On a geological time scale, the amount of CO2 we’ve released could quickly be trapped in plants and buried, but with the state of human civilization as it is, how do you suppose that would actually happen quickly enough to be meaningful for the purposes of this discussion?
The ice age is a pretty major problem for the planet. Huge ice sheets obliterate most life on the northern hemisphere continents every 100 thousand years or so.
Re: reglaciation being slow—the last reglaciation looked slower than the last melt. The one before that happened at about the same speed. However, they both look like runaway positive feedback processes. Once the process has started it may not be easy to stop it.
Thinking of reglaciation as “not pressing” seems like a quick way to get reglaciated. Humans have got to intervene in the planet’s climate and warm it up in order to avoid this disaster. Leaving the climate alone would be a recipe for reglaciation. Pumping CO2 into the atmosphere may have saved us from disaster already, may save us from disaster in the future, may merely be a step in the right direction—or may be pretty ineffectual. However, it is important to realise that humans have got to take steps to warm the planet up—otherwise our whole civilisation may be quickly screwed.
We don’t know that industrial CO2 will protect us from reglaciation—since we don’t yet fully understand the latter process—though we do know that it devastates the planet like clockwork, and so has an astronomical origin.
The atmosphere has a CO2 decay function with an estimated half-life time of somwhere between 20-100 years. It wouldn’t vanish overnight—but a lot of it could go pretty quickly if civilisation problems resulted in a cessation of production.
If reglaciation starts, could it be stopped by sprinkling coal dust on some of the ice?
Hopefully—if we have enough of a civilisation at the time. Reglaciation seems likely to only really be a threat after a major disaster or setback—I figure. Otherwise, we can just adjust the climate controls. The chances of such a major setback may seem slender—but perhaps are not so small that we can afford to be blazee about the matter. What we don’t want is to fall down the stairs—and then be kicked in the teeth.
I discuss possible theraputic interventions on: http://timtyler.org/tundra_reclamation/
The main ones listed are planting northerly trees and black ground sheets.
We don’t know great many things, but what to do right now, we must decide right now, based on whatever we happen to know. (To address the reason for Desrtopa’s comment, if not any problem with your comment on this topic I’m completely ignorant about.)
If you are concerned about loss of potentially valuable information in the form of species extinction, global warming seems like total fluff. Look instead to habitat destruction and decimation, farming practices, and the resistribution of pathogens, predators and competitors by humans.
I do look at all these issues. I’ve spoken at conferences about how they receive too little attention relative to the danger they pose. That doesn’t mean that global warming does not stand to cause major harm, and going on the basis of the content of your site, you don’t seem to have invested adequate effort into researching the potential dangers, only the potential benefits.
Really? Don’t you hear enough about the supposed potential dangers from elsewhere already?!? I certainly do.
Be advised that I have pretty minimal effort to invest in discussing global warming these days. It is a big environmentalist scam. I list it at the top of my list of bad causes here.
The only reason worth discussing it—IMO—is if you are trying to direct all the resources that are being senselessly squandered on it towards better ends. You show little sign of doing that. Rather you appear to be caught up in promoting the lunacy. Global warming is mostly fluff. WAKE UP! Bigger fish are frying.
Frankly, reviewing the content of your site strongly leads me to suspect that your position is not credible; you consistently fail to accurately present what scientists consider to be the reasons for concern. When you claim that global warming is mostly fluff, I already have stronger reason than usual to suspect that you haven’t come by your conclusion from an unbiased review of the data.
I would care much less about bothering to convince you if you were not hosting a website for the purpose of convincing others to support furthering global warming, and despite the fact that there is now virtually no controversy that global warming exists, that we are causing it, and that the negatives will outweigh the positives, many people will take any excuse to dismiss it.
My site doesn’t go into the down-sides of global warming sufficiently for you?!? My main purpose is to explain the advantages. My site is part of the internet. You can obtain a huge mountain of information about the disadvantages by following the links. I do not expect readers to use my site as their sole source of information on the topic.
There is little controversy that global warming exists. There’s quite a bit more controversy about the role of humans—though my personal view is that humans are implicated. Relatively few people seem to have given much thought to the optimal temperature of the planet for living systems. Certainly very few of those involved in the “global warming movement”.
Anyway, global warming is good. It may have saved the planet from reglaciation already, or it may do so in the future, but without global warming, the planet and our civilisation would be screwed for a long time, with high probabality. The effects so far have been pretty miniscule, though. We have to carry on warming up the planet on basic safety grounds. The only issue I see is: “how fast”.
Your representations of the downsides (forest fires and floods) are actively misleading to readers. You create a false comparison by weighing all the most significant pros you can raise against a few of the more trivial cons, and encourage readers to make a judgment on that basis. Remember that people tend to actively seek out information sources that support their own views, and once they have adopted a view, seeing arguments for it falsified will not tend to revise their confidence downwards. Additionally, there is no shortage of people who will seize on any remotely credible sounding excuse to vindicate them from having to worry about global warming. Your site runs counter to the purpose of informing the public.
If global warming has already prevented reglaciation (which, as I have stated repeatedly, is most likely the case,) then why should we continue warming the planet? Unless we slow it down by orders of magnitude, the warming is occurring faster than the geological timescales on which ecosystems without technological protection are equipped to cope with it. Onset of glaciation is much slower than the progress of global warming. We are closer to the “cliff edge” of warming the world too fast than we are to reglaciation.
You’ve already stated that you consider global warming to be a storm in a teacup because you expect to see weather control before it becomes a serious issue, but even assuming that’s realistic, it gives us a larger time window to deal with reglaciation, should we turn out not to have already prevented it.
There is no shortage of people with smoke coming out of their ears about the issue either.
Look, I don’t just mention fires and floods. I mention sea-level rise, coral reef damage, desertification, heatstroke, and a number of other disadvantages. However, the disadvantages of GW are not the main focus of my article—you can find them on a million other web sites.
Repeating something doesn’t make it true. Show that the risk is so small that we need no longer concern ourselves with the huge catastrophe it would represent, and I swear, I will not mention it again. The current situation—as I understand it—is that our understanding of glaciation cycles is weak, our understanding of climate dynamics is weak, and we have little idea of what risk of reglaciation we face.
Of course, a warmer planet will still be healthier and better one—risk of glaciation or no—but then warming it up becomes less urgent.
There isn’t a “cliff-edge” of warming nearby—AFAICS. If you look at the temperature graph of the last million years, we are at a high point—and about to fall off a cliff into a glacial phase. The other direction we can only “fall” in by rearranging the continents, so there isn’t land over the south pole, and a land-locked region around the north pole. With ice-age continental positions, warming the planet is more like struggling uphill.
One thing we could try and do about that is to destroy the Isthmus of Panama. However, that needs further research—and might be a lot of work.
Indeed. So, I only have one page about the topic, and thousands of pages about other things. As I said, this area is only of interest as a bad cause, really.
It’s true that there are people with an unrealistic view of the dangers that global warming poses, and hyperbolic reactions may stand to hurt the cause of getting people to take it seriously, but your expectations of how seriously people ought to be taking it are artificially low.
You don’t just mention fires and floods, this is true, but you invite readers to make a comparison of the pros and cons without accurately presenting the cons. If you don’t want to mislead people, you should either be presenting them more accurately, or outright telling people “This site does not accurately present the cons of global warming, and you should not form an opinion on the basis of this site without doing further research at sites not dedicated to arguing against the threats it may pose.”
You can claim that your readers are free to research the issue elsewhere, but what you are doing is encouraging them to be informationally irresponsible.
As you have already noted earlier in this debate, ice sheet melting is a runaway positive feedback process. Once we have started the cycle, warming the planet is not an uphill struggle. If you look at the temperature graph of the last million years, you will not see that we are about to fall into another glaciation period, because the climate record of the last million years does not reflect the current situation. Even if greenhouse gas levels halted where they are now, temperature would continue to rise to meet the level they set. Our climate situation is more reflective of the Pliocene, which did not have cyclical glaciation periods.
I don’t have the articles on which I based the statement; I would need access to materials from courses I’ve already graduated. I may be able to get the data by contacting old professors, but there’s a significant hassle barrier, particularly since I’m arguing with someone who I do not have a strong expectation of being receptive to new information. If I do retrieve the information, do you commit to revising your site to reflect it, or removing the site as obsolete?
You what? You are starting to irritate me with your unsolicited editorial advice. Don’t like my web page—go and make your own!
Yes—from the point of full glaciation to little glaciation, ice core evidence suggests this process is a relatively unstoppable one-way slide. However, we have gone down that slide already in this glacial cycle. Trying to push the temperature upward from there hasn’t happened naturally for millions of years. That doesn’t look so easy—while we still have an ice-age continental configuration.
That sounds more like ignoring the temperature graph—and considering other information—to me.
You are kidding, presumably. The information needs to be compelling evidence that there isn’t a significant risk. Whether you retreive it or not seems likely to be a minor factor.
As I previously explained, a warmer planet would still be better, reglaciation risk or no. More of the planet would be habitable, fewer would die of pneumonia, there would be fewer deserts—and so on. However, the reglaciation risk does add urgency to the situation.
Given that people tend to seek out informational sources that flatter their biases, and your website is one of relatively few sources attempting to convince people that the data suggests global warming is positive, making another website has less utility to me than convincing you to revise yours.
It is considering the temperature graph insofar as it is relevant, while incorporating other information that is more reflective of our current situation. Would you try to extrapolate technological advances in the next twenty years based on the average rate of technological advancement over the last six hundred?
We had more or less the same continental configuration in the Pliocene, without cyclical glaciation periods.
Climate zones would shift, necessitating massive relocations which would cause major infrastructure damage. If we alter the earth’s temperature to make larger proportions of the land mass optimally biologically suitable to humans, we are going to do tremendous damage to species that are not adapted to near-equatorial habitation, and the impact on those other species is going to cause more problems than the relatively small drop in rates of pneumonia.
How compelling would you expect the evidence to be in order for you to be willing to revise the content of your site?
I am not sure what you are getting at there. Continental configuration is one factor. There may be other ones—including astronomical influences.
Why do you think it needs revising? A warmer planet looks remarkably positive—while keeping the planet in the freezer does not. I am not very impressed by the argument that change is painful, so we should keep the planet in an ice-age climate. Anyway, lots of evidence that global warming is undesirable—and that a half-frozen planet is good—would cause me to revise my position. However, I don’t seriously expect that to happen. That is a misguided lie—and a cause of much wasted energy and resources on the planet.
You are proposing an additional mechanism to a phenomenon that we can now model with considerable confidence without it
Since you do not seem prepared to acknowledge the more significant dangers of rapid climate change, while substantially overstating the benefits of altering the entire planet to suit the biological preferences of a species that adapted to life near the equator, I doubt you would be swayed by the amount of evidence that should be (and, I assert, is,) forthcoming if you are wrong. I expect that most of the other members here already regard your position with an appropriate degree of skepticism, so while it frustrates me to leave the matter at rest while I am convinced that your position is untenable, I don’t see any benefit in continuing to participate in this debate.
Continental configuration is not an unnecessary “additional mechanism”. It is a well known factor—see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age#Position_of_the_continents
Thanks for the link, though. It will be interesting to see whether their ideas stand up to peer review. If so, it seems like bad news—the authors seem to think the forces that lead to reglaciation are due to kick in around about now.
OK, then—bye!
Do you have a feeling for how much of the planet would be temperate if it were warmer?
Imagine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperateness with the bands further towards the poles.
And a bit further away from the equator.
The reason for the shift to the term “climate change” over “global warming” is that climate zones would shift. Places that were previously not arable would become so, but places that previously were arable would cease to be. It would require a significant restructuring of our civilization to chase around the climate zones with the appropriate infrastructure.
Looking at a map …the warming occurs quite a bit more near the poles—and over land masses. So, mostly Canada and Russia will get less frosty and more cosy. That seems good. It would be hard to imagine a more positive kind of climate change than one that makes our large and mostly barren northern wastelands more productive and habitable places.
Right—over tens of thousands of years, probably. The Antarctic is pretty thick.
While I can’t speak for everyone, I strongly suspect presenting things like this makes your case less persuasive.
A dead-pan presentation washes out my character—and means I have to be more wordy to get across my intended message. Who knows if a slap will work? Not me. Consider it an experiment.
All right. In that case: what would you consider meaningful experimental results, and what would they demonstrate?
This is my experiment—and, alas, you will have to leave me to it.
I would be wary of overloading your message. Consider this as a core:
“My heavily researched impression is that global warming, while somewhat concerning, is significantly less important than many other concerns.”
Now, we dress that up. Notice the impact the following change has on you:
“I, Vaniver, have heavily researched global warming, and my impression is that while it is somewhat concerning, it is significantly less important than many other concerns.”
Most of the time, putting yourself into the message reduces persuasiveness, and the places where it doesn’t probably don’t occur during abstract debates. (Persuading someone to share their lunch with you is an example of an appropriate time, but I wouldn’t call it an abstract debate.) So while some character is inevitable, I would generally seek to err on the side of suppressing it rather than expressing it.