Note: generalisations from personal experience and anecdote follow:
men in my experience, are generally not as sensitive to emotional nuance as women, and only tend to ask “what’s wrong” if the woman has made it very clear and obvious that the man has done something wrong through emotionally-laden body-language. From my experience, men don’t realise that women actually have to wildly accentuate their body-language before their men “get it”—thus, byt he time the man actually does “get” that they did something wrong—the woman has already worked herself up into a state of anger and may no longer wish to actually talk about whatever it is anymore.
By contrast, women will often pick up on when they’ve upset another woman much quicker (through subtler body-language cues) and women (being used to having that noticed) find men unusually insensitive… and thus get more upset with them because they seem to not notice when they’ve “done something wrong” without being explicitly told.
It’s part of “female culture” that you shouldn’t need to tell another person when you’re upset… the other person should “just know” by noticing these cues. Amongst women, that’s usually the case. However—men are generally not as well “trained” on female body-language cues as other women are… and therefore don’t pick them up, and therefore actually have to be told… in words.… that the woman was upset by some action.
For a woman this is very frustrating.
Note: that I am referring to a perceived “average” here—some men are very capable of noticing these cues and some women are not very capable...
Also note: I am not actually agreeing that any of this is a “good idea” to do… just explaining what actually generally goes on in the female mind when the given hypothetical example is actually happening.
I defy your claim that women “usually” say “nothing’s wrong”. Can you substantiate the implicit claim that this is what the majority of actual women do (apart from your own anecdotes)?
This is certainly something that actual women do often enough for it to be a noticed part of the general culture. (Google “women nothing’s wrong” and find hosts of examples.) Going from the majority of actual women to the usual woman whose man complains he can’t understand women is a difficult transition to make- obviously those groups should have some systematic differences.
Indeed, it appears a common explanation for this is that the woman is testing the man: does he care enough to draw out why she’s upset? If that’s the case, advice given elsewhere in this tree to back off and give her time would backfire. (If that’s the case with this particular scenario, though, then Alice would probably start talking about it during one of the questions. The sticky part is how far the man has to probe, and when the man should decide to leave it alone vs. be persistent.)
By comparison, I’ll use my own experience with men to counter your claim that men “usually ask what’s wrong”.
That experience seems in line with the scenario SilasBarta posits. For the woman, it’s frustrating that the man doesn’t understand the message she’s sending; for the man, it’s frustrating that he doesn’t understand the message she’s sending. The communication breakdown is that neither of them seems willing or able to use the language the other is using; the woman is unwilling to explicitly articulate the problem and the man is unable to implicitly understand the problem.
(Typically, I see unwilling as easier to fix than unable, and I suspect that’s true in this case. I’ll talk more about that later.)
So, is the man “lazy”? Well, he’s certainly putting in time and effort attempting to fix the problem- which to Silas is evidence that he’s not lazy. One solution method is for him to create an effective model of Alice, which requires getting training in female culture, which requires a lot more time and effort than just asking her what’s wrong now. But it seems to me that ‘laziness’ is not the reason why Bob doesn’t choose that method- he probably doesn’t know that’s something he can do. (It may even be the case that he can’t. Perhaps even after hundreds of hours of training Bob will be unable to correctly parse signals sent by Alice.)
Now, why is Alice unwilling to explicitly talk about why she’s upset? Perhaps Bob is quick to dismiss reasons Alice thinks are significant. Perhaps Bob has different standards of proof than she does. Consider: “I don’t think Carol likes me.” “Did she say she didn’t like you?” “No… but she crossed her arms at me.” “But that could mean anything!” Alice crosses her arms at Bob.
If that’s the case, then Bob might be able to make Alice more willing to talk by being more willing to listen, and slower to judge.
Alice’s reasons for being upset could be embarrassing for a variety of reasons. Maybe Alice is mad at Bob because she had a dream that Bob did something mean to her. (Yes, this actually happens.) She can’t just stop being mad at him, but she can’t explain why she’s mad because Bob will think it’s crazy. In cases like this, Bob can’t do as much.
This is certainly something that actual women do often enough for it to be a noticed part of the general culture.
Oh certainly—I never claimed that it was not present (or even common), I was reacting to Silas use of the word “usually” which implies that a majority of women do this, possibly a majority of the time.
I just find this attitude a little negative—as nasty as women suggesting that “all men are lazy”—which I do not agree with… though I have certainly seen many examples of it happening… and it’s another meme that I’m sure you can google for to find plenty of examples ;)
Actually, you might notice that I edited my original comment to remove the wording you’ve replied to, as on further thought I decided it was just a bit too reactionary. I changed what I was saying purely to the anecdotal discussions about how women often perceive men… based on their own maps of how people “should behave” or “should notice” them emotionally.
Again—not agreeing with that—I believe such views are laden with map-territory issues.
It took me personally a long time to realise that “he isn’t being insensitive… he just hasn’t learned the same cues I’m used to and he probably has lots of cues that I persistently fail to notice”
In cases like this, Bob can’t do as much.
Agreed—in some cases there’s a kind of emotional mexican stand-off—where both partners are unable or unwilling to take the steps necessary to solve the problem.
I also agree that in this case, Bob is not being lazy, though perhaps he’s not acting in an optimal fashion (or perhaps he is, but Alice is not). I offered my original “number 3” as just another possibility—not “what all men do”, after all :)
It’s not clear to me that prejudices are worthless evidence. It seems to me reasonable to take stereotypes as your prior and update on evidence rather than taking maxent as your prior.
If there’s evidence out there I should be updating on, I’d love to hear it.
Note: generalisations from personal experience and anecdote follow:
men in my experience, are generally not as sensitive to emotional nuance as women, and only tend to ask “what’s wrong” if the woman has made it very clear and obvious that the man has done something wrong through emotionally-laden body-language. From my experience, men don’t realise that women actually have to wildly accentuate their body-language before their men “get it”—thus, byt he time the man actually does “get” that they did something wrong—the woman has already worked herself up into a state of anger and may no longer wish to actually talk about whatever it is anymore.
By contrast, women will often pick up on when they’ve upset another woman much quicker (through subtler body-language cues) and women (being used to having that noticed) find men unusually insensitive… and thus get more upset with them because they seem to not notice when they’ve “done something wrong” without being explicitly told.
It’s part of “female culture” that you shouldn’t need to tell another person when you’re upset… the other person should “just know” by noticing these cues. Amongst women, that’s usually the case. However—men are generally not as well “trained” on female body-language cues as other women are… and therefore don’t pick them up, and therefore actually have to be told… in words.… that the woman was upset by some action. For a woman this is very frustrating.
Note: that I am referring to a perceived “average” here—some men are very capable of noticing these cues and some women are not very capable...
Also note: I am not actually agreeing that any of this is a “good idea” to do… just explaining what actually generally goes on in the female mind when the given hypothetical example is actually happening.
This is certainly something that actual women do often enough for it to be a noticed part of the general culture. (Google “women nothing’s wrong” and find hosts of examples.) Going from the majority of actual women to the usual woman whose man complains he can’t understand women is a difficult transition to make- obviously those groups should have some systematic differences.
Indeed, it appears a common explanation for this is that the woman is testing the man: does he care enough to draw out why she’s upset? If that’s the case, advice given elsewhere in this tree to back off and give her time would backfire. (If that’s the case with this particular scenario, though, then Alice would probably start talking about it during one of the questions. The sticky part is how far the man has to probe, and when the man should decide to leave it alone vs. be persistent.)
That experience seems in line with the scenario SilasBarta posits. For the woman, it’s frustrating that the man doesn’t understand the message she’s sending; for the man, it’s frustrating that he doesn’t understand the message she’s sending. The communication breakdown is that neither of them seems willing or able to use the language the other is using; the woman is unwilling to explicitly articulate the problem and the man is unable to implicitly understand the problem.
(Typically, I see unwilling as easier to fix than unable, and I suspect that’s true in this case. I’ll talk more about that later.)
So, is the man “lazy”? Well, he’s certainly putting in time and effort attempting to fix the problem- which to Silas is evidence that he’s not lazy. One solution method is for him to create an effective model of Alice, which requires getting training in female culture, which requires a lot more time and effort than just asking her what’s wrong now. But it seems to me that ‘laziness’ is not the reason why Bob doesn’t choose that method- he probably doesn’t know that’s something he can do. (It may even be the case that he can’t. Perhaps even after hundreds of hours of training Bob will be unable to correctly parse signals sent by Alice.)
Now, why is Alice unwilling to explicitly talk about why she’s upset? Perhaps Bob is quick to dismiss reasons Alice thinks are significant. Perhaps Bob has different standards of proof than she does. Consider: “I don’t think Carol likes me.” “Did she say she didn’t like you?” “No… but she crossed her arms at me.” “But that could mean anything!” Alice crosses her arms at Bob.
If that’s the case, then Bob might be able to make Alice more willing to talk by being more willing to listen, and slower to judge.
Alice’s reasons for being upset could be embarrassing for a variety of reasons. Maybe Alice is mad at Bob because she had a dream that Bob did something mean to her. (Yes, this actually happens.) She can’t just stop being mad at him, but she can’t explain why she’s mad because Bob will think it’s crazy. In cases like this, Bob can’t do as much.
Oh certainly—I never claimed that it was not present (or even common), I was reacting to Silas use of the word “usually” which implies that a majority of women do this, possibly a majority of the time.
I just find this attitude a little negative—as nasty as women suggesting that “all men are lazy”—which I do not agree with… though I have certainly seen many examples of it happening… and it’s another meme that I’m sure you can google for to find plenty of examples ;)
Actually, you might notice that I edited my original comment to remove the wording you’ve replied to, as on further thought I decided it was just a bit too reactionary. I changed what I was saying purely to the anecdotal discussions about how women often perceive men… based on their own maps of how people “should behave” or “should notice” them emotionally.
Again—not agreeing with that—I believe such views are laden with map-territory issues.
It took me personally a long time to realise that “he isn’t being insensitive… he just hasn’t learned the same cues I’m used to and he probably has lots of cues that I persistently fail to notice”
Agreed—in some cases there’s a kind of emotional mexican stand-off—where both partners are unable or unwilling to take the steps necessary to solve the problem.
I also agree that in this case, Bob is not being lazy, though perhaps he’s not acting in an optimal fashion (or perhaps he is, but Alice is not). I offered my original “number 3” as just another possibility—not “what all men do”, after all :)
“Noticed parts of general culture” are often wrong. They’re called stereotypes or prejudices.
It’s not clear to me that prejudices are worthless evidence. It seems to me reasonable to take stereotypes as your prior and update on evidence rather than taking maxent as your prior.
If there’s evidence out there I should be updating on, I’d love to hear it.