To me, the simpler explanation is loyalty signaling. A change in behavior represents a change in alliances, so your friends/family are trying to make sure you’re not unintentionally signaling your desire to break alliance with them, to join another group. They don’t want to lose an ally, or for your nonconforming behavior to negatively affect their status with others within your common social circle.
IOW, if you = Person A and your friend/family member is B, then B fears that some set of others C will identify you as an out-group member, and question B’s status due to their association with you.
However, since humans are adaptation-executors rather than utility maximizers (and are thus inherently self-deceiving), only the most self-aware B will realize that this is what they fear. Instead, they will simply feel a sense that your behavior is somehow not-right, dangerous, or even offensive to some degree… and a resulting desire to save you from yourself, so as to reduce the agitation and discomfort they feel in the face of your behavior.
Btw, in at least some self-help and entrepreneurial circles this phenomenon is well-known, and persons involved in efforts to change or improve themselves are urged to seek out peer groups in which their desired/target behaviors are normal, desirable, and praiseworthy… as well as to expect/be prepared for negative reactions from current peer groups.
Actually, come to think of it, the advice to seek a peer group is also common to PUAs and 12-step recovery groups alike. Humans just seem to function better when they can realistically believe they are behaving in ways that are admired by others in their social circle.
Changing your peer group/reference group is generally helpful for making changes. Also, most people report having a difficult time changing others’ minds around them in their current peer group.
I do wonder if there’s other solutions besides changing your peer/reference group. I guess, keeping your ambitious changes quiet/lowkey for a while while starting… other thoughts?
To me, the simpler explanation is loyalty signaling. A change in behavior represents a change in alliances, so your friends/family are trying to make sure you’re not unintentionally signaling your desire to break alliance with them, to join another group. They don’t want to lose an ally, or for your nonconforming behavior to negatively affect their status with others within your common social circle.
Isn’t this simply another hypothesis? It sounds nice, sure, but I think it would take more evidence than you’ve given to promote this from plausible to probable.
Btw, in at least some self-help and entrepreneurial circles this phenomenon is well-known, and persons involved in efforts to change or improve themselves are urged to seek out peer groups in which their desired/target behaviors are normal, desirable, and praiseworthy… as well as to expect/be prepared for negative reactions from current peer groups.
This certainly differs from my mom’s advice, which is essentially to be a member of at least one “average” peer group, in order to remain grounded in reality. Her idea is that if you abandon your current groups and join some other one, you’ll begin to think like them whether their ideas are right or not. Thus, it would be a bad idea to, say, flee Grand Rapids and run off to Santa Clara, where everyone wants to live forever in robot bodies. I might become one of those crazy people.
This certainly differs from my mom’s advice, which is essentially to be a member of at least one “average” peer group, in order to remain grounded in reality.
Your mom’s advice only makes sense if your goal is to be average, because being a member of said group will make it difficult to do any better than average.
It’s also an example of status-quo bias, because she’s defining “reality” as whatever “average” people believe… but the type of people she considers “average” is itself determined by her pre-existing beliefs.
In other words, if you taboo “average”, you find that the advice is really saying, “don’t change, because you won’t fit in with my group any more”!
(That is, it’s exactly what we’d expect someone faced with a changing ally would say.)
Her idea is that if you abandon your current groups and join some other one, you’ll begin to think like them whether their ideas are right or not.
I said “seek out peer groups in which their desired/target behaviors are normal”.
In other words, the presupposition is that you’ve already come to the conclusion that you want to have those beliefs or behaviors, because you evaluated them before choosing to participate in the group in question.
I think it would take more evidence than you’ve given to promote this from plausible to probable.
But it nonetheless beats the crap out of the article’s hypothesis, which posits an entirely new piece of machinery, rather than falling naturally out of existing theory (i.e humans are motivated by status and alliances, behavior signals likely alliances or changes of alliance, etc.).
AFAICT, nothing I’ve said in the explanation proposes any new instincts, machinery, or inclinations that aren’t already textbook ev. psych. IOW, based on what we know so far, my explanation should be what we should predict even if we didn’t already know people did this sort of thing.
I said “seek out peer groups in which their desired/target behaviors are normal”.
In other words, the presupposition is that you’ve already come to the conclusion that you want to have those beliefs or behaviors, because you evaluated them before choosing to participate in the group in question.
Ah, there’s the kicker. I thought her advice was good, but I had never realized that I could check out groups’ behaviors in order to see if they’re good or bad, rather than just blindly joining a group and hoping it’s a good one. This should change my behavior in the future.
So, fearing that A is signalling a desire to leave the group, B discourage A’s new behaviour; to counteract this, A seeks out a new peer group, increasing the odds that A does end up leaving the group. So B is engaging in classic self-defeating behaviour … unless, of course, the peer pressure succeeds.
Unfortunately, B’s response to A may well be rational, if B expects other Bs to react the same way, leading A to leave the group unless B can make the peer pressure on A to conform strong enough. The various Bs are in something like the prisoner’s dilemma with each other; (if I knew my catalogue of game theory better, I’d be able to say just what they’re in).
A seeks out a new peer group, iincreasing the odds that A does end up leaving the group. So B is engaging in classic self-defeating behaviour … unless, of course, the peer pressure succeeds.
Which it usually does. In the ancestral environment, opportunities for seeking out a new peer group were quite limited, so our brains don’t quite realize they can do it; they’re still quite biased towards keeping the existing group happy.
If this weren’t the case, it wouldn’t be so necessary for wealth, self-help, PUA, and other gurus to harp on the importance of doing it, and of being prepared for a negative response from your existing peer group.
Right, it’s definitely not PD. And it’s not Chicken. As you say, it’s one with two Nash equilibria, a good one at both-cooperate and a worse one at both-defect. I just don’t remember what it’s called and don’t know where to find out online.
To me, the simpler explanation is loyalty signaling. A change in behavior represents a change in alliances, so your friends/family are trying to make sure you’re not unintentionally signaling your desire to break alliance with them, to join another group. They don’t want to lose an ally, or for your nonconforming behavior to negatively affect their status with others within your common social circle.
IOW, if you = Person A and your friend/family member is B, then B fears that some set of others C will identify you as an out-group member, and question B’s status due to their association with you.
However, since humans are adaptation-executors rather than utility maximizers (and are thus inherently self-deceiving), only the most self-aware B will realize that this is what they fear. Instead, they will simply feel a sense that your behavior is somehow not-right, dangerous, or even offensive to some degree… and a resulting desire to save you from yourself, so as to reduce the agitation and discomfort they feel in the face of your behavior.
Btw, in at least some self-help and entrepreneurial circles this phenomenon is well-known, and persons involved in efforts to change or improve themselves are urged to seek out peer groups in which their desired/target behaviors are normal, desirable, and praiseworthy… as well as to expect/be prepared for negative reactions from current peer groups.
Actually, come to think of it, the advice to seek a peer group is also common to PUAs and 12-step recovery groups alike. Humans just seem to function better when they can realistically believe they are behaving in ways that are admired by others in their social circle.
Anyone have ideas about how to easily and convincingly falsify pjeby’s and/or lionhearted’s hypotheses about psychology?
(Tangential:) I’m not sure, but I think a big perk of the existence of the LW community is that to some extent it is such a social circle.
Good analysis.
Changing your peer group/reference group is generally helpful for making changes. Also, most people report having a difficult time changing others’ minds around them in their current peer group.
I do wonder if there’s other solutions besides changing your peer/reference group. I guess, keeping your ambitious changes quiet/lowkey for a while while starting… other thoughts?
Isn’t this simply another hypothesis? It sounds nice, sure, but I think it would take more evidence than you’ve given to promote this from plausible to probable.
This certainly differs from my mom’s advice, which is essentially to be a member of at least one “average” peer group, in order to remain grounded in reality. Her idea is that if you abandon your current groups and join some other one, you’ll begin to think like them whether their ideas are right or not. Thus, it would be a bad idea to, say, flee Grand Rapids and run off to Santa Clara, where everyone wants to live forever in robot bodies. I might become one of those crazy people.
Your mom’s advice only makes sense if your goal is to be average, because being a member of said group will make it difficult to do any better than average.
It’s also an example of status-quo bias, because she’s defining “reality” as whatever “average” people believe… but the type of people she considers “average” is itself determined by her pre-existing beliefs.
In other words, if you taboo “average”, you find that the advice is really saying, “don’t change, because you won’t fit in with my group any more”!
(That is, it’s exactly what we’d expect someone faced with a changing ally would say.)
I said “seek out peer groups in which their desired/target behaviors are normal”.
In other words, the presupposition is that you’ve already come to the conclusion that you want to have those beliefs or behaviors, because you evaluated them before choosing to participate in the group in question.
But it nonetheless beats the crap out of the article’s hypothesis, which posits an entirely new piece of machinery, rather than falling naturally out of existing theory (i.e humans are motivated by status and alliances, behavior signals likely alliances or changes of alliance, etc.).
AFAICT, nothing I’ve said in the explanation proposes any new instincts, machinery, or inclinations that aren’t already textbook ev. psych. IOW, based on what we know so far, my explanation should be what we should predict even if we didn’t already know people did this sort of thing.
Ah, there’s the kicker. I thought her advice was good, but I had never realized that I could check out groups’ behaviors in order to see if they’re good or bad, rather than just blindly joining a group and hoping it’s a good one. This should change my behavior in the future.
So, fearing that A is signalling a desire to leave the group, B discourage A’s new behaviour; to counteract this, A seeks out a new peer group, increasing the odds that A does end up leaving the group. So B is engaging in classic self-defeating behaviour … unless, of course, the peer pressure succeeds.
Unfortunately, B’s response to A may well be rational, if B expects other Bs to react the same way, leading A to leave the group unless B can make the peer pressure on A to conform strong enough. The various Bs are in something like the prisoner’s dilemma with each other; (if I knew my catalogue of game theory better, I’d be able to say just what they’re in).
Which it usually does. In the ancestral environment, opportunities for seeking out a new peer group were quite limited, so our brains don’t quite realize they can do it; they’re still quite biased towards keeping the existing group happy.
If this weren’t the case, it wouldn’t be so necessary for wealth, self-help, PUA, and other gurus to harp on the importance of doing it, and of being prepared for a negative response from your existing peer group.
Well, their problem is not opposing interests. In your model, they seem to have the same interests—they’re just at the wrong Nash equilibrium.
Right, it’s definitely not PD. And it’s not Chicken. As you say, it’s one with two Nash equilibria, a good one at both-cooperate and a worse one at both-defect. I just don’t remember what it’s called and don’t know where to find out online.