Hmm. I worry that, without significant modeling and measurement of relevant variables, the causality is suspect. Neither bee nor bird response is the same dimension as what we usually mean by “smart”, and they’re very likely optimized for different cost-benefit values (specifically, protection of central hive vs distributed nests or individual birds, and cost-of-replacement of individuals lost in the action).
The leap to humans, with type-2 reasoning in addition to automatic behaviors, is pretty huge.
Ok, I would definitely call the bee response “smart” but thats hard to define. If you define it by an action that costs the bees very little but benefits a lot, then “swarm the scout hornet” is certainly efficient. Another criteria could be if such a behavior was established would it continue? Say the birds developed a “swarm the attacker” call. When birds hear it, they look to see if they can find the attacker, if they see it then they repeat the call. When the call gets widespread, the whole flock switches to attack. Would such a behavior persist if developed? If it would then lets call it efficient or smart.
The leap to humans is meant to be large—something extreme like consciousness and language is needed to break the communication/coordination penalty for larger organisms with fitness more defined by the individual than the hive.
I would definitely call the bee response “smart” but thats hard to define.
I think a solid attempt at defining it is required for this post to make sense. I’d call the bee response “effective”, but I can’t talk myself into thinking it’s “smart” in the way you talk about coordination and individual identity. It’s a different axis entirely.
OK for this post. “smart”. A response is smart/intelligent if
Firstly there is an assumed goal and measure. I don’t think it matters whether we are talking about the bees/birds as individuals or as part of the hive/flock. In this case the bee defense is effective both for the individual bee and hive. If a bee was only concerned about its survival, swarming the scout would still be beneficial, and of course such behavior is for the hive. Similarly for birds, flocks with large numbers of birds with swarming behavior would be better both for the flock, and individual birds in such a flock.
There is a force multiplier effect, the benefit of the behavior is much greater than the cost. This is obvious for the bees, a tiny expenditure of calories saves the hive. Likewise for birds, they waste a huge amount of calories both individually and collectively evading the hawk etc.
There is a local optimum (or something close) for the behavior—that is half measures don’t give half the benefit. So it seems like the result of foresight. There is perhaps more of a distinct and distant local optimum for the bee behavior “identify the scout, send warning chemicals to the hive, then swarm it” then the possible bird behavior “call then attack the attacker” as the scout isn’t the actual attack in the bees case.
The change is behavioral, rather than a physical adaptation.
This fits into the intuitive feeling of what intelligent is also. A characteristic of what people feel is intelligent is to imagine a scenario, then make it real. The bees havn’t done that, but the outcome is as if they had. “Imagine if we took out the scout, then there would be no later invasion”
You look at the birds and think “how do they miss this—ant colonies swarm to see off a larger attacker, herding animals do too, why do they miss such a simple effective strategy?” In that situation they are not intuitively intelligent.
Hmm. I worry that, without significant modeling and measurement of relevant variables, the causality is suspect. Neither bee nor bird response is the same dimension as what we usually mean by “smart”, and they’re very likely optimized for different cost-benefit values (specifically, protection of central hive vs distributed nests or individual birds, and cost-of-replacement of individuals lost in the action).
The leap to humans, with type-2 reasoning in addition to automatic behaviors, is pretty huge.
Ok, I would definitely call the bee response “smart” but thats hard to define. If you define it by an action that costs the bees very little but benefits a lot, then “swarm the scout hornet” is certainly efficient. Another criteria could be if such a behavior was established would it continue? Say the birds developed a “swarm the attacker” call. When birds hear it, they look to see if they can find the attacker, if they see it then they repeat the call. When the call gets widespread, the whole flock switches to attack. Would such a behavior persist if developed? If it would then lets call it efficient or smart.
The leap to humans is meant to be large—something extreme like consciousness and language is needed to break the communication/coordination penalty for larger organisms with fitness more defined by the individual than the hive.
I think a solid attempt at defining it is required for this post to make sense. I’d call the bee response “effective”, but I can’t talk myself into thinking it’s “smart” in the way you talk about coordination and individual identity. It’s a different axis entirely.
OK for this post. “smart”. A response is smart/intelligent if
Firstly there is an assumed goal and measure. I don’t think it matters whether we are talking about the bees/birds as individuals or as part of the hive/flock. In this case the bee defense is effective both for the individual bee and hive. If a bee was only concerned about its survival, swarming the scout would still be beneficial, and of course such behavior is for the hive. Similarly for birds, flocks with large numbers of birds with swarming behavior would be better both for the flock, and individual birds in such a flock.
There is a force multiplier effect, the benefit of the behavior is much greater than the cost. This is obvious for the bees, a tiny expenditure of calories saves the hive. Likewise for birds, they waste a huge amount of calories both individually and collectively evading the hawk etc.
There is a local optimum (or something close) for the behavior—that is half measures don’t give half the benefit. So it seems like the result of foresight. There is perhaps more of a distinct and distant local optimum for the bee behavior “identify the scout, send warning chemicals to the hive, then swarm it” then the possible bird behavior “call then attack the attacker” as the scout isn’t the actual attack in the bees case.
The change is behavioral, rather than a physical adaptation.
This fits into the intuitive feeling of what intelligent is also. A characteristic of what people feel is intelligent is to imagine a scenario, then make it real. The bees havn’t done that, but the outcome is as if they had. “Imagine if we took out the scout, then there would be no later invasion”
You look at the birds and think “how do they miss this—ant colonies swarm to see off a larger attacker, herding animals do too, why do they miss such a simple effective strategy?” In that situation they are not intuitively intelligent.