It’s entirely possible (I’m imagining being meek and social risk-averse) in the same way as it’s entirely possible to grow up poor and stay out of trouble with the law. It’s a lot easier to be creepy if you’re low-status, and much of the behavior that is deemed creepy would not be called creepy if a high-status person did the exact same thing (think “quirky,” “endearing,” “charming”).
In practice, cracking down on creepiness means excluding low-status people, except for a meek remnant.
There’s high-status creeping too (like someone putting an arm round someone who doesn’t want him to). This can be very bad for the creepee—the high status means that complaints to the group are likely to be dismissed as oversensitivity or whining.
It’s a natural human tendency to let high-status people get away with things, but I don’t think it’s so immutable that a group can’t develop a culture that reduces the damage.
And if you are the creep, there’s at least a chance that you didn’t mean to be and that you’re willing to modify your behaviour in ways that have large advantages for the creepee and only small disadvantages for you.
If male creepiness is contributing to the gender imbalance on LessWrong, I would expect high-status creepiness to be far more problematic than low-status creepiness. In a social setting, it’s a lot easier to call a low-status member out for being creepy. If a high-status member is being creepy, a newcomer might prefer to leave than to confront him/her or complain about his/her behavior to the rest of the group. Alternatively, if the newcomer does complain about the high-status member, he/she might be scoffed at by the rest of the group, who likes that individual.
Status gets wonky here, though, and online in general. One’s status doesn’t readily translate from one’s RL social network to the internet (celebrities are an obvious exception here), and the cultural makeup of the group’s members, in addition to the social norms they propagate within the group itself, will go a long way toward determining relative status.
It’s one thing if you’re talking Eliezer or Alicorn, but the run-of-the-mill LW member probably fits into this situation. Hence, we don’t need to necessarily see creepy behavior among the highest-status folks here, for it to nevertheless be a widespread norm that affects gender ratios on the site. (Frankly, all sorts of communities, online and off, encounter this in some form).
There’s high-status creeping too (like someone putting an arm round someone who doesn’t want him to).
Yes, but if you’re high-status, a much higher fraction of people do want (or are okay with) your arm around them, and so the GP is right that status affects the probability of triggering the creep classifier.
True, but it’s also entirely possible to want behavior X from person Y and still find it creepy when Y actually does X, depending on how and in what context they do it. Creepiness is often about those details.
That still wouldn’t justify the unhelpful, over-general warning of “don’t do X”, stripped of the specific (correctly-diagnosed) “how and in what context” caveats.
For at least some X’s, the real warning is not “don’t do X, ever.” It’s: “if you do X, you are responsible for anyone being creeped out by X. You might get away with it, depending on how considerate, socially aware, or charismatic you are—just don’t complain if you get it wrong and we have to kick you out so that people can feel safe and comfortable.”
AFAICT, there’s nothing wrong with this rule: in fact, it is close to optimal for the purposes of LW meetups.
Pretty much this. Also, the advice being given might more accurately be “you don’t do X, because you obviously don’t know how to judge the context and details and are therefore very likely to get it wrong”. Except, if someone actually says that, the person it’s being said to is liable to try to rope them into explaining the context-and-details thing, which 1) is very complicated, to the point where explaining it is a major project and 2) most people can’t articulate, so that’s awkward if it happens. Also, it’s often true that once a person does learn how to judge the context and details properly (on their own, generally speaking, by observation and reading many things on the topic), they will then be able to see what they were doing wrong before and how to avoid that mistake, and conclude that they can try again regardless of previous advice.
Most of what I just said isn’t relevant to meetup groups, though; bogus’ angle is much more relevant there.
For better or worse, creepiness is socially defined. WIthin a social group, most people don’t secretly resent high-status people, by definition. If only one person has a problem with it, that’s not being creepy, that’s “he’s being charming and you have a problem.”
It only becomes “creepy” when you come to LW or a group of sympathetic friends and the local balance of power shifts in your favor.
If only one person in a group is allergic to my aftershave, they are allergic to my aftershave. If only one person in a group finds my voice intolerable, they find my voice intolerable. If only one person in a group finds my behavior disturbing or frightening or alienating, they find my behavior disturbing or frightening or alienating.
Yes, that person has a problem. And the question is, what are we going to do about that problem, if anything?
The notion that because they have a problem, we therefore ought not do anything, strikes me as bizarre. It’s precisely because they have a problem that the question even arises; if they didn’t have a problem, there would be no reason to even discuss it.
So, OK. If my behavior frightens or disturbs or alienates you, or my aftershave causes you an allergic reaction, or whatever, you have a problem.The question is, what happens next?
I might decide I care about your problem, and take steps to alleviate it. Or I might decide I don’t care about your problem, and go on doing what I was doing. Or somewhere in between.
You might similarly decide to alleviate your own problem, or decide to ignore it, or something in between. Third parties might, similarly, decide they care about your problem to various degrees, or they might not.
This is not independent of status—if you’re a high-status member of the group, I might care about your problem because of your status; if you’re a low-status member I might not-care about your problem because of your status; if I’m a high-status member third parties might not-care about your problem because of my status, and so forth.
But it’s not equivalent to status, either—if we come from a culture where acknowledging the existence of body odor is taboo, the fact that you have a problem with my body odor might get ignored even if we’re all of equal status, or even if you’re higher status than I am. (Of course, you might then claim a different problem you don’t actually have in order to solve your real problem in a socially acceptable way.)
Similarly, it’s not independent of the size of the affected group, but it’s not equivalent to it either.
If only one person has a problem with it, that’s not being creepy, that’s “he’s being charming and you have a problem.”
And that, folks, is one of the ways that the ~6% of educated males (according to one study, anyway) who are rapists get to do their thing: by being “charming” to everyone but their target, so the target is isolated and feels she has nobody to turn to.
FYI: If one person in my meetup group has a problem with Person X touching them when they don’t want him/her to, I have a problem with Person X, too.
People behave differently in different social contexts, though. If person Y finds person X’s behavior creepy, and no one else finds person X’s behavior creepy, it could be that X is behaving differently towards Y than he/she is towards everyone else.
Obviously, this is relevant to the gender situation, where person X is male and behaves differently towards females than he does towards males.
It’s socially influenced, but you’re being a bit too status-deterministic about it. Take the example of Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger’s (probably true but not prosecuted) rape allegation. Beforehand, he was as high-status as a man can get in the United States, and a vast majority of American women who knew who he was would have found him attractive. Afterward, he seems to have regained much of his status among male Steeler fans, but he has the unmistakable tag of “creepy” (to say the least) among women who follow football.
Since it’s very low-cost to stop touching someone who doesn’t like it, compared to the cost of enduring it, a group where it’s considered “creepy” is a better group.
I’m confused by your argument. Where I live, the visibly religious are high status. Does that mean I can’t resent a religious person’s treatment of me? That’s a strange definition of high-status.
Can be, sure. The claim is still valid as a heuristic.
What’s more, people are more likely to pre-judge the high status person favorably, and thus want whatever behavior would be a “no-no” for the low-status person, and so behavior violating the supposed anti-creep rules is much less likely to be noticed and recognized as such (e.g. my example before about pushy hugs).
Anytime you find yourself saying, “How dare he do X? That’s creepy! Don’t ever do X, folks!”, ask yourself if you would have the same reaction if you liked this person and welcomed X. If the answer is no, you’ve misdiagnosed the problem.
Anytime you find yourself saying, “How dare he do X? That’s creepy! Don’t ever do X, folks!”, ask yourself if you would have the same reaction if you liked this person and welcomed X. If the answer is no, you’ve misdiagnosed the problem.
I think the truth of that statement depends on how you chunk the behavior.
To get back to this, Rene’s approaches to Genevieve would have been appropriate as behaviors in that sort of a relationship if you chunk them as things a person might do, and very inappropriate because she was moving away from him/not responding, etc., so that if your chunk includes what she does (not to mention that a relationship didn’t already exist) as well as what he does, you get a different answer.
I agree with the first part of your comment, but the last paragraph seems contradictory:
Anytime you find yourself saying, “How dare he do X? That’s creepy! Don’t ever do X, folks!”, ask yourself if you would have the same reaction if you liked this person and welcomed X.
Creepiness is by definition unwelcome behavior; that’s just the meaning of the term—“that which causes someone to feel creeped out”. Of course any welcome behavior would not be labelled creepy.
But the entire problem is that its welcomeness is not known until you do it! That’s why you have to go based on general standards of acceptable behavior in judging an action, not by whether one person happened to not like it.
Imagine if Elevatorgate started from, not some elevator, but just the mere fact of Watson being “asked out”, and she went on to say, “Whoa! Creepy! Guys, don’t ever ask a woman out!”
Someone might protest, “Wait, what?”
Do you understand why it’s not a very satisfactory answer to say, “It’s okay, we’re only talking about those cases where it’s unwanted”? If so, apply it to your own answer.
I reread your first comment and I think I just misread it the first time. (And you may have misread mine). I think we were just talking past each other.
We seem to agree on the important bits, namely that:
“Creepiness” is defined and measured by the “creeped out” response of recipients.
Therefore it depends not just on the action, but on the recipient and on how they perceive the actor.
Therefore an action is not definitely creepy or noncreepy until carried out; it is hard to predict reactions.
To the extent that the same action is perceived as creepy or not coming from different people, we shouldn’t be talking about the action itself sometimes being creepy, but about the relevant differences between people.
I don’t think we agree, in particular, because I don’t agree that the particulars of how a specific event was perceived are relevant for general rules of condemnation. That is, I’m fine with saying “Don’t do X” if X really is widely disliked, regardless of the person, but not with giving the same advice, while actually predicating it on people’s ability to know others’ reaction in advance.
Moreover, when a low-status person creeps on me, I feel like I have more freedom to express nicely to them that I was creeped out and offer to explain why. When a high-status person creeps on me, I feel like they have too much power to want to stop or listen to me, and nobody else will listen to me either, because this person has social command.
Yeah, same here. Creepy behavior from people with high status is a big red flag on a group or social situation for me; it implies that at least in some cases they can get away with that, and I categorically don’t feel emotionally safe in those environments.
See also: The Missing Stair. Source has a history of overusing feminist memes with the result of obfuscating their point, but I think this piece was particularly well-written.
“Status” is not quite the right term here — social rank correlates with the kind of charm that can make an ambiguous behavior be not-creepy, but isn’t the same.
It’s entirely possible (I’m imagining being meek and social risk-averse) in the same way as it’s entirely possible to grow up poor and stay out of trouble with the law. It’s a lot easier to be creepy if you’re low-status, and much of the behavior that is deemed creepy would not be called creepy if a high-status person did the exact same thing (think “quirky,” “endearing,” “charming”).
In practice, cracking down on creepiness means excluding low-status people, except for a meek remnant.
There’s high-status creeping too (like someone putting an arm round someone who doesn’t want him to). This can be very bad for the creepee—the high status means that complaints to the group are likely to be dismissed as oversensitivity or whining.
It’s a natural human tendency to let high-status people get away with things, but I don’t think it’s so immutable that a group can’t develop a culture that reduces the damage.
And if you are the creep, there’s at least a chance that you didn’t mean to be and that you’re willing to modify your behaviour in ways that have large advantages for the creepee and only small disadvantages for you.
If male creepiness is contributing to the gender imbalance on LessWrong, I would expect high-status creepiness to be far more problematic than low-status creepiness. In a social setting, it’s a lot easier to call a low-status member out for being creepy. If a high-status member is being creepy, a newcomer might prefer to leave than to confront him/her or complain about his/her behavior to the rest of the group. Alternatively, if the newcomer does complain about the high-status member, he/she might be scoffed at by the rest of the group, who likes that individual.
Status gets wonky here, though, and online in general. One’s status doesn’t readily translate from one’s RL social network to the internet (celebrities are an obvious exception here), and the cultural makeup of the group’s members, in addition to the social norms they propagate within the group itself, will go a long way toward determining relative status.
It’s one thing if you’re talking Eliezer or Alicorn, but the run-of-the-mill LW member probably fits into this situation. Hence, we don’t need to necessarily see creepy behavior among the highest-status folks here, for it to nevertheless be a widespread norm that affects gender ratios on the site. (Frankly, all sorts of communities, online and off, encounter this in some form).
Yes, but if you’re high-status, a much higher fraction of people do want (or are okay with) your arm around them, and so the GP is right that status affects the probability of triggering the creep classifier.
True, but it’s also entirely possible to want behavior X from person Y and still find it creepy when Y actually does X, depending on how and in what context they do it. Creepiness is often about those details.
That still wouldn’t justify the unhelpful, over-general warning of “don’t do X”, stripped of the specific (correctly-diagnosed) “how and in what context” caveats.
For at least some X’s, the real warning is not “don’t do X, ever.” It’s: “if you do X, you are responsible for anyone being creeped out by X. You might get away with it, depending on how considerate, socially aware, or charismatic you are—just don’t complain if you get it wrong and we have to kick you out so that people can feel safe and comfortable.”
AFAICT, there’s nothing wrong with this rule: in fact, it is close to optimal for the purposes of LW meetups.
Pretty much this. Also, the advice being given might more accurately be “you don’t do X, because you obviously don’t know how to judge the context and details and are therefore very likely to get it wrong”. Except, if someone actually says that, the person it’s being said to is liable to try to rope them into explaining the context-and-details thing, which 1) is very complicated, to the point where explaining it is a major project and 2) most people can’t articulate, so that’s awkward if it happens. Also, it’s often true that once a person does learn how to judge the context and details properly (on their own, generally speaking, by observation and reading many things on the topic), they will then be able to see what they were doing wrong before and how to avoid that mistake, and conclude that they can try again regardless of previous advice.
Most of what I just said isn’t relevant to meetup groups, though; bogus’ angle is much more relevant there.
For better or worse, creepiness is socially defined. WIthin a social group, most people don’t secretly resent high-status people, by definition. If only one person has a problem with it, that’s not being creepy, that’s “he’s being charming and you have a problem.”
It only becomes “creepy” when you come to LW or a group of sympathetic friends and the local balance of power shifts in your favor.
If only one person in a group is allergic to my aftershave, they are allergic to my aftershave.
If only one person in a group finds my voice intolerable, they find my voice intolerable.
If only one person in a group finds my behavior disturbing or frightening or alienating, they find my behavior disturbing or frightening or alienating.
Yes, that person has a problem.
And the question is, what are we going to do about that problem, if anything?
The notion that because they have a problem, we therefore ought not do anything, strikes me as bizarre. It’s precisely because they have a problem that the question even arises; if they didn’t have a problem, there would be no reason to even discuss it.
So, OK. If my behavior frightens or disturbs or alienates you, or my aftershave causes you an allergic reaction, or whatever, you have a problem.The question is, what happens next?
I might decide I care about your problem, and take steps to alleviate it.
Or I might decide I don’t care about your problem, and go on doing what I was doing.
Or somewhere in between.
You might similarly decide to alleviate your own problem, or decide to ignore it, or something in between.
Third parties might, similarly, decide they care about your problem to various degrees, or they might not.
This is not independent of status—if you’re a high-status member of the group, I might care about your problem because of your status; if you’re a low-status member I might not-care about your problem because of your status; if I’m a high-status member third parties might not-care about your problem because of my status, and so forth.
But it’s not equivalent to status, either—if we come from a culture where acknowledging the existence of body odor is taboo, the fact that you have a problem with my body odor might get ignored even if we’re all of equal status, or even if you’re higher status than I am. (Of course, you might then claim a different problem you don’t actually have in order to solve your real problem in a socially acceptable way.)
Similarly, it’s not independent of the size of the affected group, but it’s not equivalent to it either.
And that, folks, is one of the ways that the ~6% of educated males (according to one study, anyway) who are rapists get to do their thing: by being “charming” to everyone but their target, so the target is isolated and feels she has nobody to turn to.
FYI: If one person in my meetup group has a problem with Person X touching them when they don’t want him/her to, I have a problem with Person X, too.
People behave differently in different social contexts, though. If person Y finds person X’s behavior creepy, and no one else finds person X’s behavior creepy, it could be that X is behaving differently towards Y than he/she is towards everyone else.
Obviously, this is relevant to the gender situation, where person X is male and behaves differently towards females than he does towards males.
It’s socially influenced, but you’re being a bit too status-deterministic about it. Take the example of Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger’s (probably true but not prosecuted) rape allegation. Beforehand, he was as high-status as a man can get in the United States, and a vast majority of American women who knew who he was would have found him attractive. Afterward, he seems to have regained much of his status among male Steeler fans, but he has the unmistakable tag of “creepy” (to say the least) among women who follow football.
Since it’s very low-cost to stop touching someone who doesn’t like it, compared to the cost of enduring it, a group where it’s considered “creepy” is a better group.
That certainly isn’t true by definition and it isn’t even always true in practice. “It’s better to be feared than to be loved”, etc.
(The rest of your comment seems more or less accurate as a description of how social power and moralizing works.)
I’m confused by your argument. Where I live, the visibly religious are high status. Does that mean I can’t resent a religious person’s treatment of me? That’s a strange definition of high-status.
Creepiness is not down to status. High-status people can be plenty creepy.
Can be, sure. The claim is still valid as a heuristic.
What’s more, people are more likely to pre-judge the high status person favorably, and thus want whatever behavior would be a “no-no” for the low-status person, and so behavior violating the supposed anti-creep rules is much less likely to be noticed and recognized as such (e.g. my example before about pushy hugs).
Anytime you find yourself saying, “How dare he do X? That’s creepy! Don’t ever do X, folks!”, ask yourself if you would have the same reaction if you liked this person and welcomed X. If the answer is no, you’ve misdiagnosed the problem.
I think the truth of that statement depends on how you chunk the behavior.
To get back to this, Rene’s approaches to Genevieve would have been appropriate as behaviors in that sort of a relationship if you chunk them as things a person might do, and very inappropriate because she was moving away from him/not responding, etc., so that if your chunk includes what she does (not to mention that a relationship didn’t already exist) as well as what he does, you get a different answer.
I agree with the first part of your comment, but the last paragraph seems contradictory:
Creepiness is by definition unwelcome behavior; that’s just the meaning of the term—“that which causes someone to feel creeped out”. Of course any welcome behavior would not be labelled creepy.
But the entire problem is that its welcomeness is not known until you do it! That’s why you have to go based on general standards of acceptable behavior in judging an action, not by whether one person happened to not like it.
Imagine if Elevatorgate started from, not some elevator, but just the mere fact of Watson being “asked out”, and she went on to say, “Whoa! Creepy! Guys, don’t ever ask a woman out!”
Someone might protest, “Wait, what?”
Do you understand why it’s not a very satisfactory answer to say, “It’s okay, we’re only talking about those cases where it’s unwanted”? If so, apply it to your own answer.
I reread your first comment and I think I just misread it the first time. (And you may have misread mine). I think we were just talking past each other.
We seem to agree on the important bits, namely that:
“Creepiness” is defined and measured by the “creeped out” response of recipients.
Therefore it depends not just on the action, but on the recipient and on how they perceive the actor.
Therefore an action is not definitely creepy or noncreepy until carried out; it is hard to predict reactions.
To the extent that the same action is perceived as creepy or not coming from different people, we shouldn’t be talking about the action itself sometimes being creepy, but about the relevant differences between people.
I don’t think we agree, in particular, because I don’t agree that the particulars of how a specific event was perceived are relevant for general rules of condemnation. That is, I’m fine with saying “Don’t do X” if X really is widely disliked, regardless of the person, but not with giving the same advice, while actually predicating it on people’s ability to know others’ reaction in advance.
I understood it to mean “ask myself if I can imagine someone doing X in a way I welcomed.”
Moreover, when a low-status person creeps on me, I feel like I have more freedom to express nicely to them that I was creeped out and offer to explain why. When a high-status person creeps on me, I feel like they have too much power to want to stop or listen to me, and nobody else will listen to me either, because this person has social command.
Yeah, same here. Creepy behavior from people with high status is a big red flag on a group or social situation for me; it implies that at least in some cases they can get away with that, and I categorically don’t feel emotionally safe in those environments.
See also: The Missing Stair. Source has a history of overusing feminist memes with the result of obfuscating their point, but I think this piece was particularly well-written.
“Status” is not quite the right term here — social rank correlates with the kind of charm that can make an ambiguous behavior be not-creepy, but isn’t the same.