First: I’m actually in the process of figuring out my own take on this, so my opinion may be subject to change over the course of this thread (and a few other threads elsewhere in the internet that happened to come up at the same time).
There’s two sets of rules getting talked about here—one is the rules for the group, the other is the rules for an individual.
Because of things like bystander effect, status-quo bias, etc, it’s important for groups to have some clear cut lines which, if crossed, result in expulsion (or at least a solid warning with a clear threat of expulsion).
I think AndrewHickey was not referring to codified group rules at the time, but to your own personal rules you should be following, regardless. The group shouldn’t automatically expel every member who’s doing something that one person finds arbitrarily creepy. But if you find that someone is creeped out by a behavior of yours, you should still take it upon yourself to alter that behavior, at least around that person, for no reason other than that it bothers them. You should also use common sense in the corner case that some person is arbitrarily deciding “I find X creepy” in a deliberate effort to screw with you.
It’s also your responsibility to treat that question seriously and not look for reasons like “this person is arbitrarily declaring me creepy” as an excuse to not have to change your behavior.
Exactly. I was talking about the ‘rule’ “If a significant fraction of a group find your behaviour creepy, the responsibility to change the behaviour is yours.”
That’s a rule for an individual’s behaviour. And as written it’s a stupid rule that invites abuse—the stereotypical ‘nice guy’ can just say “well, no-one else complained” and still carry on behaving that way and thinking of himself as behaving properly.
First: I’m actually in the process of figuring out my own take on this, so my opinion may be subject to change over the course of this thread (and a few other threads elsewhere in the internet that happened to come up at the same time).
There’s two sets of rules getting talked about here—one is the rules for the group, the other is the rules for an individual.
Because of things like bystander effect, status-quo bias, etc, it’s important for groups to have some clear cut lines which, if crossed, result in expulsion (or at least a solid warning with a clear threat of expulsion).
I think AndrewHickey was not referring to codified group rules at the time, but to your own personal rules you should be following, regardless. The group shouldn’t automatically expel every member who’s doing something that one person finds arbitrarily creepy. But if you find that someone is creeped out by a behavior of yours, you should still take it upon yourself to alter that behavior, at least around that person, for no reason other than that it bothers them. You should also use common sense in the corner case that some person is arbitrarily deciding “I find X creepy” in a deliberate effort to screw with you.
It’s also your responsibility to treat that question seriously and not look for reasons like “this person is arbitrarily declaring me creepy” as an excuse to not have to change your behavior.
I agree that the distinction between group rules and personal rules is very important, and should be more explicit in this sort f conversation
Exactly. I was talking about the ‘rule’ “If a significant fraction of a group find your behaviour creepy, the responsibility to change the behaviour is yours.”
That’s a rule for an individual’s behaviour. And as written it’s a stupid rule that invites abuse—the stereotypical ‘nice guy’ can just say “well, no-one else complained” and still carry on behaving that way and thinking of himself as behaving properly.