Agreed. Eric displayed so little ability to react to oddness. Perhaps, “Why would you react with revulsion if I expressed the desire to fuck you? If it’s because of cultural expectation or because you would interpret such an expression as an indication that I’m generally abrupt and crass, then the analogy fails to hold.”
Uh, … I’ve wondered since about four years before this post was published why women seem so universally offended by any signs that a man would like to have sex with them, with the possible exception of a man they’re already very very very much into. Especially considering those signs seem to be redundant, since most of the time a man and a woman meet, he’ll want to have sex with her, unless, of course, his sex drive is being satisfied to the point of exhaustion elsewhere.
I’ve never been able to discuss this rationally with anyone. Women usually imply it should be obvious to everyone why they’re offended and there’s nothing else to say about it. Besides, everyone knows I’m talking to the woman only because I’d like to have sex with her, which makes the topic, and me, doubly disgusting.
I find it therefore amazing, though still puzzling, to see a woman suggesting that question.
On the other hand, does anyone here actually frequent environments where you can get away with such a long reply, in an ordinary conversation, without the other person interrupting you, walking away, slapping you or anything like that? I find it hard enough to believe among mature adults, let alone a teenage boy talking to a haughty and exceptionally attractive and smart female peer. That’s yet another reason for me to deeply envy all of you.
(Wow, I was commenting on LW thirteen years ago...) I didn’t suggest saying this out of the blue! My recommended riposte borrows the story protagonist’s vocabulary and tone. If a woman asks you:
“What you’re saying is tantamount to saying that you want to fuck me. So why shouldn’t I react with revulsion precisely as though you’d said the latter?”
then, it may be appropriate to discuss, optionally using the word “fuck”, why she’d react that way if you’d asked that question, which you didn’t, having instead (as in the story) made a much more innocuous suggestion, neither culturally inappropriate nor abrupt and crass.
I didn’t suggest saying this out of the blue! My recommended riposte borrows the story protagonist’s vocabulary and tone.
I understood that much the first time.
If a woman asks you:
“What you’re saying is tantamount to saying that you want to fuck me. So why shouldn’t I react with revulsion precisely as though you’d said the latter?”
then, it may be appropriate to discuss, optionally using the word “fuck”, why she’d react that way if you’d asked that question, which you didn’t, having instead (as in the story) made a much more innocuous suggestion, neither culturally inappropriate nor abrupt and crass.
I think the protagonist makes an excellent point. In fact, she understates it. She mentions plenty of reasons to expect essentially any heterosexual male classmate to be interested in having sex with her if given the chance, so if she’s going to be revolted by that, she might as well go ahead and be revolted without waiting for anyone to tell her anything.
The obvious way out of this conundrum, as you pointed out, is to question the premise that she should be revolted by her male peers’ sexual desires toward her. This doesn’t seem to stop people in general from agreeing with that premise and deeming it self-evident.
As Ilyssa herself argues, how is focusing on the first domino any more innocuous than admitting the hundredth will fall, too? Is there anything to what you call socially appropriate behavior, not abrupt or crass, beyond a lame attempt to deceive her? In fact, since he’s probably well aware she won’t be fooled, I don’t even know which simulacrum level he’s trying to operate at; likely 4.
I wish I’d been asked that kind of questions, including the ones in the few following paragraphs, while being both young enough for them to make sense and the situation not to be too disgusting, and mature enough to understand them and know my true answers. At Eric and Ilyssa’s age, I’m sure I would have enjoyed and come to crave an unbounded amount of physical intimacy with almost any of my female classmates, provided we got along and could trust each other, but I didn’t really know it. I just knew I wanted to get to know them, necessarily slowly, much like I found out, half a decade later, that women tend to emphasize. Funny; in my case, it probably comes from being perpetually isolated and vulnerable. Also, I didn’t have the vocabulary to know what “if I offered myself to you” means, so I’d just be puzzled by the question and probably look like a hypocrite to everyone. Also, my parents would have put a stop to that kind of relationship sooner rather than later, and I guess hers would have, too. Also, I was no “one of the more desirable seniors”. Okay, I’ll shut up.
Agreed. Eric displayed so little ability to react to oddness. Perhaps, “Why would you react with revulsion if I expressed the desire to fuck you? If it’s because of cultural expectation or because you would interpret such an expression as an indication that I’m generally abrupt and crass, then the analogy fails to hold.”
Uh, … I’ve wondered since about four years before this post was published why women seem so universally offended by any signs that a man would like to have sex with them, with the possible exception of a man they’re already very very very much into. Especially considering those signs seem to be redundant, since most of the time a man and a woman meet, he’ll want to have sex with her, unless, of course, his sex drive is being satisfied to the point of exhaustion elsewhere.
I’ve never been able to discuss this rationally with anyone. Women usually imply it should be obvious to everyone why they’re offended and there’s nothing else to say about it. Besides, everyone knows I’m talking to the woman only because I’d like to have sex with her, which makes the topic, and me, doubly disgusting.
I find it therefore amazing, though still puzzling, to see a woman suggesting that question.
On the other hand, does anyone here actually frequent environments where you can get away with such a long reply, in an ordinary conversation, without the other person interrupting you, walking away, slapping you or anything like that? I find it hard enough to believe among mature adults, let alone a teenage boy talking to a haughty and exceptionally attractive and smart female peer. That’s yet another reason for me to deeply envy all of you.
(Wow, I was commenting on LW thirteen years ago...) I didn’t suggest saying this out of the blue! My recommended riposte borrows the story protagonist’s vocabulary and tone. If a woman asks you:
then, it may be appropriate to discuss, optionally using the word “fuck”, why she’d react that way if you’d asked that question, which you didn’t, having instead (as in the story) made a much more innocuous suggestion, neither culturally inappropriate nor abrupt and crass.
I understood that much the first time.
I think the protagonist makes an excellent point. In fact, she understates it. She mentions plenty of reasons to expect essentially any heterosexual male classmate to be interested in having sex with her if given the chance, so if she’s going to be revolted by that, she might as well go ahead and be revolted without waiting for anyone to tell her anything.
The obvious way out of this conundrum, as you pointed out, is to question the premise that she should be revolted by her male peers’ sexual desires toward her. This doesn’t seem to stop people in general from agreeing with that premise and deeming it self-evident.
As Ilyssa herself argues, how is focusing on the first domino any more innocuous than admitting the hundredth will fall, too? Is there anything to what you call socially appropriate behavior, not abrupt or crass, beyond a lame attempt to deceive her? In fact, since he’s probably well aware she won’t be fooled, I don’t even know which simulacrum level he’s trying to operate at; likely 4.
I wish I’d been asked that kind of questions, including the ones in the few following paragraphs, while being both young enough for them to make sense and the situation not to be too disgusting, and mature enough to understand them and know my true answers. At Eric and Ilyssa’s age, I’m sure I would have enjoyed and come to crave an unbounded amount of physical intimacy with almost any of my female classmates, provided we got along and could trust each other, but I didn’t really know it. I just knew I wanted to get to know them, necessarily slowly, much like I found out, half a decade later, that women tend to emphasize. Funny; in my case, it probably comes from being perpetually isolated and vulnerable. Also, I didn’t have the vocabulary to know what “if I offered myself to you” means, so I’d just be puzzled by the question and probably look like a hypocrite to everyone. Also, my parents would have put a stop to that kind of relationship sooner rather than later, and I guess hers would have, too. Also, I was no “one of the more desirable seniors”. Okay, I’ll shut up.