...sigh. Okay, put it like this. We’re clearly arguing past each other. I think your points are self-evidently wrong, and your arguments bordering on trolling. I am sure this is not how the discussion appears to you, and you may feel that my points are equally bad, but we’re not making any progress here. And it’s degenerating into a Standard Political Debate—basically a libertarian “no coercive government is ever okay” position versus a utilitarian “sometimes it’s an optimal solution” position, which has been done about a billion times and about which there is very little left to be said.
That leaves us with two options. We can either continue unproductively wasting time and energy on a particularly unproductive version of a cliched topic that neither of us can realistically affect, all the while breaking the Less Wrong gentlemens’ agreement against explicit political discussions. Or one person can bow out and allow the other person to take the last word.
And it’s degenerating into a Standard Political Debate—basically a libertarian “no coercive government is ever okay” position versus a utilitarian “sometimes it’s an optimal solution” position,
That demonstrates only that you don’t understand the points that have been made.
Again, I’m not interested in conversing with people who make long lists of assertions, then remove themselves from the discussion.
If you don’t want to continue participating in it, then don’t. But don’t try to seize the last word and then declare that the conversation is now over.
If you don’t want to continue participating in it, then don’t. But don’t try to seize the last word and then declare that the conversation is now over.
That’s not what he intended. Note:
This is turning into a political discussion here, and not even one that meets this community’s high standards. I will read your next response, but otherwise not continue this thread further.
Yvain’s stated intent was to let you have the last word, and not contribute further.
Yvain’s stated intent was to let you have the last word, and not contribute further.
His actual intent, revealed by what he did, was to spout a lot of fallacious arguments and mischaracterizations and then say that he would not respond further.
If you’re giving someone the last word, the way isn’t to do bow out after making a bunch of points.
I’ve responded to you four or five times over several days. I don’t feel an obligation to continue forever, especially when you don’t seem to be understanding my points, and I definitely do not want to clog Less Wrong with it. If it is that important to you, feel free to email me any of your further thoughts at yvain314@hotmail.com .
You don’t seem to be understanding my points, judging from the nature of your responses.
But that isn’t the issue. I don’t care about what you, personally, believe. You’re making logically invalid arguments—that, I care about—and you’re doing so publically—which requires public refutation.
Contacting you personally would accomplish nothing. The point is not to convince you, but to accurately recognize and state the validity and invalidity of your arguments.
First, you are aware that there’s a difference between “You are making logically invalid arguments” and “Your arguments sound logically invalid to me, which means either that you are wrong or that I am misunderstanding them,” right?
Second, you’re contradicting yourself. If your goal is to convince me, feel free to do it by email. If your goal is to state what you think are the flaws in my argument to publically convince other people, then feel free to do it here, and be happy that I won’t be responding to muddle things up further.
The point is not to “convince” anyone. The point is to correctly and explicitly state the logical flaws in your positions. It is then the job of every rational person to convince themselves.
Refusing to ‘contribute’ further rules out acknowledging that the other’s position has been misrepresented.
True but irrelevant. Furthermore, Yvain’s failure to acknowledge anything is immaterial what you claim is the point of the conversation, to wit, to accurately recognize and state the validity and invalidity of his arguments, and not to convince him.
I’m not interested in conversing with people who make long lists of assertions, then remove themselves from the discussion.
...sigh. Okay, put it like this. We’re clearly arguing past each other. I think your points are self-evidently wrong, and your arguments bordering on trolling. I am sure this is not how the discussion appears to you, and you may feel that my points are equally bad, but we’re not making any progress here. And it’s degenerating into a Standard Political Debate—basically a libertarian “no coercive government is ever okay” position versus a utilitarian “sometimes it’s an optimal solution” position, which has been done about a billion times and about which there is very little left to be said.
That leaves us with two options. We can either continue unproductively wasting time and energy on a particularly unproductive version of a cliched topic that neither of us can realistically affect, all the while breaking the Less Wrong gentlemens’ agreement against explicit political discussions. Or one person can bow out and allow the other person to take the last word.
That demonstrates only that you don’t understand the points that have been made.
Again, I’m not interested in conversing with people who make long lists of assertions, then remove themselves from the discussion.
If you don’t want to continue participating in it, then don’t. But don’t try to seize the last word and then declare that the conversation is now over.
That’s not what he intended. Note:
Yvain’s stated intent was to let you have the last word, and not contribute further.
His actual intent, revealed by what he did, was to spout a lot of fallacious arguments and mischaracterizations and then say that he would not respond further.
If you’re giving someone the last word, the way isn’t to do bow out after making a bunch of points.
I’ve responded to you four or five times over several days. I don’t feel an obligation to continue forever, especially when you don’t seem to be understanding my points, and I definitely do not want to clog Less Wrong with it. If it is that important to you, feel free to email me any of your further thoughts at yvain314@hotmail.com .
You don’t seem to be understanding my points, judging from the nature of your responses.
But that isn’t the issue. I don’t care about what you, personally, believe. You’re making logically invalid arguments—that, I care about—and you’re doing so publically—which requires public refutation.
Contacting you personally would accomplish nothing. The point is not to convince you, but to accurately recognize and state the validity and invalidity of your arguments.
First, you are aware that there’s a difference between “You are making logically invalid arguments” and “Your arguments sound logically invalid to me, which means either that you are wrong or that I am misunderstanding them,” right?
Second, you’re contradicting yourself. If your goal is to convince me, feel free to do it by email. If your goal is to state what you think are the flaws in my argument to publically convince other people, then feel free to do it here, and be happy that I won’t be responding to muddle things up further.
Your first ‘question’ is merely a veiled insult.
No, I am not.
The point is not to “convince” anyone. The point is to correctly and explicitly state the logical flaws in your positions. It is then the job of every rational person to convince themselves.
Okay. You were always free to do exactly that, instead of asserting that Yvain was
when he was actually ceding the last word and declaring the conversation over just as soon as you were done replying to his last substantive comment.
Ahem:
Refusing to ‘contribute’ further rules out acknowledging that the other’s position has been misrepresented.
True but irrelevant. Furthermore, Yvain’s failure to acknowledge anything is immaterial what you claim is the point of the conversation, to wit, to accurately recognize and state the validity and invalidity of his arguments, and not to convince him.