PUA stance—“Women are attracted to confident, dominant males.
If you feel like the PUA conception of women is accurate, that’s a different discussion...and perhaps one that we should have given the concerns about misogyny on LW.
The first stance is basically accurate for the majority of hetero women.
For what percentage of hetero women do you think that’s false?
Both genders like confidence equally. Both genders like some amount of social dominance, although both genders seem to value it more in men. I don’t know how much of that is just culture. If we’re talking sexual dominance/submissiveness, I’d estimate 20% of women prefer submissive men, 50% prefer dominant, and 30% don’t care - I’m sure we could get that data if we wanted.
That’s not the part which is the problem. It’s the entailing conclusions about behavior...
even if it means being an asshole and playing on people’s insecurities sometimes.
which I don’t like. Also, attempts at artificially puffing up ones social dominance are almost never good.
attempts at artificially puffing up ones social dominance are almost never good.
Of course everyone (like you) want to put down people who claim higher status than you think they really have. What makes one’s social dominance “artificial” or genuine? Merely the success of convincing others that you are in fact dominant. So your argument (that artificially high dominance is bad) implies that you only dislike unsuccessful PUAs, the ones who fail to raise their status in your eyes.
...what I meant by that, is the methods that people usually employ when attempting to puff up social dominance (displays of power and authority, disregard for others, etc) are distasteful.
you only dislike unsuccessful PUAs, the ones who fail to raise their status in your eyes.
That’s sort of true, but the order of events is reversed, and we need to unpack “status”.
If I identify someone using unethical behavior, I dislike them, thereby lowering their social status.
To become a “successful” PUA (one that raised his/her status in my eyes) one would need to refrain from behavior I perceive as distasteful. Obviously, this includes refraining from all behaviors that I define as immoral.
Unpacking status: Perceptions of “dominance” and perceptions of “liking” are separate. Dominance is decided by power hierarchy within a group—for example, I’ll almost always perceive my boss as “dominant”, but if she exerts authority unfairly I will see her as dominant and unlikeable, whereas if she is charismatic and helps me achieve my goals I will see her as dominant and likeable.
Both genders like confidence equally. Both genders like some amount of social dominance,
Don’t think so. Men are much more tolerant of limited confidence. Many women will argue that men aren’t even attracted to confident women. Similarly, I don’t see men interested in women who dominate others. Higher status is good, but dominating others—no.
I’m not going to blame men who cater to the preferences of women. Pointless exercise. They should slit their own throats so that women can dump them for men who behave they way they respond to? If you don’t approve of what women prefer, take it up with them.
No...women do not like people who are assholes and play on people’s insecurities. No healthy person likes that.
Social “dominance” is about being charismatic and influential within a group.
It’s not about over-riding people’s preferences. It’s not about playing on insecurities. Rather, it’s about making people comfortable and helping them to achieve their ends.
Women like what they like, and I’m not going to blame men who cater to those likes. If you don’t approve of what women like, take it up with them.
In the least convenient universe where women did like that, are you really willing to endorse unethical actions in pursuit of mating?
No...women do not like people who are assholes and play on people’s insecurities. No healthy person likes that.
I think that many branches of PUA contain some fairly toxic memes, but I think this claim is only true under a rather narrow and exclusionary definition of “healthy.”
I’ve certainly known women who were attracted to men who were assholes and played on others’ insecurities. I never became bitter about it, because they weren’t women I would have wanted to be attracted to me instead, but I don’t think that means it’s fair to label them as psychologically unhealthy. Plenty of women also play on others’ insecurities to attain social dominance (ex. queen bees.) Whether this helps make them attractive to men, I couldn’t say, but it certainly doesn’t seem to prohibit their receiving attraction.
Fair point. I was conceptualizing psychological health as a dichotomous spectrum. It’s not about falling over or under the line of psychologically unhealthy—one set of behaviors is simply more healthy than another.
Most people have at least a few “unhealthy” behaviors. I know I have one or two.
I was talking about dominating others, women wanting men who do that, and men not being so interested in women who do that.
You seem to be using “social dominance” as a synonym for social status. Yes, everyone likes social status. Men get it by dominating others. Women don’t.
are you really willing to endorse unethical actions in pursuit of mating?
I don’t see winning as unethical. I don’t see giving women what they respond to as unethical. Some people like S&M. Is a little pain “unethical”, if that’s what someone responds to?
Social dominance is helping people acheive their ends?
I think (by the quotes) you mean “What some call social dominance in regards to womens attraction is actually making them comfortable and helping them achieve their goals.”
Which is less Orwellian, in terms of the not using the word dominance to mean its opposite, but… still isn’t necessarily true.
Men who succeed in convincing others to serve the goals those men choose are what we call social dominance, and that this is actually attractive to women is equally reasonable a priori.
Men who succeed in convincing others to serve the goals those men choose are what we call social dominance, and that this is actually attractive to women is equally reasonable a priori.
Yeah, that’s actually a much better way to put it., except that’s not just for men.
And you can use unethical methods (coercion, violence) to achieve that...but that’s not the only way it can be achieved.
I guess by appending the word “social” to the word dominance, I took it to mean specifically the “charismatic” sort of dominance, when you get people to follow your interests because they like you or think that you can help them succeed (rather than out of fear of violence or social consequences)
The first stance is basically accurate for the majority of hetero women.
For what percentage of hetero women do you think that’s false?
Both genders like confidence equally. Both genders like some amount of social dominance, although both genders seem to value it more in men. I don’t know how much of that is just culture. If we’re talking sexual dominance/submissiveness, I’d estimate 20% of women prefer submissive men, 50% prefer dominant, and 30% don’t care - I’m sure we could get that data if we wanted.
That’s not the part which is the problem. It’s the entailing conclusions about behavior...
which I don’t like. Also, attempts at artificially puffing up ones social dominance are almost never good.
Of course everyone (like you) want to put down people who claim higher status than you think they really have. What makes one’s social dominance “artificial” or genuine? Merely the success of convincing others that you are in fact dominant. So your argument (that artificially high dominance is bad) implies that you only dislike unsuccessful PUAs, the ones who fail to raise their status in your eyes.
...what I meant by that, is the methods that people usually employ when attempting to puff up social dominance (displays of power and authority, disregard for others, etc) are distasteful.
That’s sort of true, but the order of events is reversed, and we need to unpack “status”.
If I identify someone using unethical behavior, I dislike them, thereby lowering their social status.
To become a “successful” PUA (one that raised his/her status in my eyes) one would need to refrain from behavior I perceive as distasteful. Obviously, this includes refraining from all behaviors that I define as immoral.
Unpacking status: Perceptions of “dominance” and perceptions of “liking” are separate. Dominance is decided by power hierarchy within a group—for example, I’ll almost always perceive my boss as “dominant”, but if she exerts authority unfairly I will see her as dominant and unlikeable, whereas if she is charismatic and helps me achieve my goals I will see her as dominant and likeable.
Don’t think so. Men are much more tolerant of limited confidence. Many women will argue that men aren’t even attracted to confident women. Similarly, I don’t see men interested in women who dominate others. Higher status is good, but dominating others—no.
I’m not going to blame men who cater to the preferences of women. Pointless exercise. They should slit their own throats so that women can dump them for men who behave they way they respond to? If you don’t approve of what women prefer, take it up with them.
No...women do not like people who are assholes and play on people’s insecurities. No healthy person likes that.
Social “dominance” is about being charismatic and influential within a group.
It’s not about over-riding people’s preferences. It’s not about playing on insecurities. Rather, it’s about making people comfortable and helping them to achieve their ends.
In the least convenient universe where women did like that, are you really willing to endorse unethical actions in pursuit of mating?
I think that many branches of PUA contain some fairly toxic memes, but I think this claim is only true under a rather narrow and exclusionary definition of “healthy.”
I’ve certainly known women who were attracted to men who were assholes and played on others’ insecurities. I never became bitter about it, because they weren’t women I would have wanted to be attracted to me instead, but I don’t think that means it’s fair to label them as psychologically unhealthy. Plenty of women also play on others’ insecurities to attain social dominance (ex. queen bees.) Whether this helps make them attractive to men, I couldn’t say, but it certainly doesn’t seem to prohibit their receiving attraction.
Fair point. I was conceptualizing psychological health as a dichotomous spectrum. It’s not about falling over or under the line of psychologically unhealthy—one set of behaviors is simply more healthy than another.
Most people have at least a few “unhealthy” behaviors. I know I have one or two.
I was talking about dominating others, women wanting men who do that, and men not being so interested in women who do that.
You seem to be using “social dominance” as a synonym for social status. Yes, everyone likes social status. Men get it by dominating others. Women don’t.
I don’t see winning as unethical. I don’t see giving women what they respond to as unethical. Some people like S&M. Is a little pain “unethical”, if that’s what someone responds to?
Roland made a new thread, so as not to derail this one with the PUA stuff.
See my comment there, where I make my position on when “dominant” becomes “asshole” more clear, and let me know if you still disagree.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/h6l/pick_up_artistspuas_my_view/
Social dominance is helping people acheive their ends? I think (by the quotes) you mean “What some call social dominance in regards to womens attraction is actually making them comfortable and helping them achieve their goals.” Which is less Orwellian, in terms of the not using the word dominance to mean its opposite, but… still isn’t necessarily true. Men who succeed in convincing others to serve the goals those men choose are what we call social dominance, and that this is actually attractive to women is equally reasonable a priori.
Yeah, that’s actually a much better way to put it., except that’s not just for men.
And you can use unethical methods (coercion, violence) to achieve that...but that’s not the only way it can be achieved.
I guess by appending the word “social” to the word dominance, I took it to mean specifically the “charismatic” sort of dominance, when you get people to follow your interests because they like you or think that you can help them succeed (rather than out of fear of violence or social consequences)
The second part is not a statement about women.